The Minister of Justice, Néstor Osuna (Bogotá, 60 years old), is a constitutional lawyer who has under his umbrella one of the obsessions of the first left-wing president in the recent history of Colombia: the reversal in drug policy that he demands from the world .
“It is a gradual, progressive thing.
We know that every day of delay is a calamitous day for Colombian society, but there is no other way," he says in his office, on the ninth floor of an old building in the heart of Bogotá, with breathtaking views over the center of the capital. .
In recent years it was the headquarters of the Truth Commission, which emerged from the peace agreement with the extinct FARC guerrilla.
"That's why you can't lie here," he points out during this interview with EL PAÍS.
Ask.
How would you define the moment Colombia is going through?
Answer.
I am convinced that we are at the beginning of a time of change that hopefully we can crystallize in the best sense and with the greatest impetus possible.
Q.
You represent a liberal sector in the Cabinet, how has the clash been with the wing that comes from left activism?
R.
I would distinguish two scenarios.
The one in Congress, where there is a coalition that has been working well.
And that of the Government, in which what I said four or five months ago has been dissipating.
Now there is a work team very committed to President Petro's ideas for change, regardless of where each one came from
.
Q.
There has been information of tensions, or conflicting visions, for example on the subject of health.
R.
Government meetings are open, frank, controversial;
everyone expresses their position.
But there is a common purpose above any controversy: the desire to get it right and the commitment to the president's program.
A very good team dynamic has been established.
No one seeks to make one idea prevail over another, but to contribute to a dynamic of change that we know is ambitious, risky and for which we are all willing to gamble.
Q.
The first project that the Government presented this semester, before the National Development Plan, was the prison reform.
Because?
R.
For the very clear decision to favor the sectors most affected in violation of human rights.
The president is firmly persuaded to build a system of much more justice.
Q.
What is the most "humanist" view of the criminal policy that you promote?
R.
It is humanistic for society in general, because it allows us to think of a punishment system that is not purely vengeful.
If the reform goes well, all of us will be able to live calmer compared to those who were in jail and were released;
We are not going to be afraid that they have gone through the 'university of crime'.
It is also more humanist with the victims, who are the great forgotten of the current penal system: nobody compensates them, repairs them or asks for forgiveness.
And also, certainly, he is a humanist with people who are in jail, since he establishes re-socialization programs that allow them to become better people.
Q.
Legislators like Roy Barreras have pointed out the importance of the submission law, which we still do not know.
What are the government's red lines in policy for criminal gangs?
Q.
One: there will be ordinary justice.
There will be no transitional justice or anything similar to the JEP [Special Jurisdiction for Peace] for high-impact criminal gangs.
Two: there will be a reduction in sentences, but not impunity, or amnesties, or anything like that.
The benefits will be in exchange for dismantling the gang, not replacing the bosses or slightly decreasing their activity.
There is a draft but we need to define the final text
.
Q.
At least a part of the so-called FARC dissidents are going to fall for that law of submission?
R.
It is one of the points to be defined.
If the two great dissidences [Central General Staff and Segunda Marquetalia] enter as high-impact armed criminal groups, or as groups in insurrection, or if one does and the other does not.
That is pending.
Q.
What is needed to transfer the Police from the Ministry of Defense to the Ministry of Justice?
A.
Several things.
We began to do an in-depth study of how to make this change beneficial to society, strengthen the Police and citizen security, and not cause harm to the Military Forces.
We want to do this demarcation very well, and it is not done from one day to the next
.
Q.
Transferring the Police is an almost unanimous recommendation from many organizations...
R.
Yes, remove it from the Ministry of Defense to accentuate its civil character of citizen protection, and not the military protection of sovereignty that speaks of the enemy.
The Police have no enemy, they have people to protect.
Perhaps being in Defense has blurred the line between the military and the police, and that is not functional for a democratic society.
Q.
Do you expect there to be resistance to this transfer?
R.
If thinking about a 72-hour permit for a prisoner generates so much resistance, imagine changing the Police from where it has always been.
This is going to give rise to many debates, hopefully reasoned, well-founded.
Also screams and tantrums.
We are prepared for that.
Q.
How will the simultaneous change be, the internal reform of the Police that includes, for example, the president's promise to end the ESMAD?
R.
This can be done gradually, but we want to be clear about the bases of all these transformations.
That will also serve the study.
Q.
On another matter, we already know the figures for illicit crops for 2021 with a record of 204,000 hectares. What expectations do you have for the 2022 data?
A.
Preliminary reports indicate that the figure is going to be worse.
We don't know how many more hectares, but it will be enough.
Now, we may be hitting the ceiling.
As the consumption of other drugs grows, the cocaine supply may already be excessive, and its production has become more technical and requires less coca leaf for each kilo of cocaine.
Then it is possible that the number of hectares has exceeded the break-even point.
Q.
You have said that they are going to suffocate some activities and give oxygen to others. Which ones?
R.
Suffocation is for drug trafficking: more interdiction, more penal efficiency, more international collaboration.
Oxygen is for the peasants: the arrival of the Social State of Law so that they can live more calmly within the law, with health, with education.
We will have a containment strategy agreed with them, so that the hectares decrease as the institutional offer arrives.
We do not want to criminalize the weakest in the chain, the farmer who cannot survive from another activity, but not all the crops are theirs.
Defining which ones is not easy.
The National Narcotics Council is studying various methodologies to soon define what we will understand as industrial cultivation, to which we will continue to apply forced manual eradication.
Yes there is too much coke
Q.
The president has said over and over again that prohibitionism failed.
What are the pillars of the new policy?
A.
One is not to criminalize growers, but to offer them alternatives.
This is directly related to the possibility of peace, of dismantling armed bands.
Another is a much more effective fight against drug trafficking mafias and their money laundering networks.
The last leg is to propose the change in all international scenarios.
The complete solution to that problem cannot be taken by a single country.
The international model must be changed, little by little.
Surely it will not be achieved in this government, but a seed is planted.
Although speaking well of the boss is almost an obligation, I think it is very brave to say it as a president and even less to say it as a former president.
P.
Petro seeks to summon other presidents of the region to rethink the war against drugs.
Is it possible to gather enough international support?
A.
Little by little.
There may be bilateral progress or with a group of countries.
Canada just decriminalized cocaine in one region.
There are more and more studies on the subject.
So it is a gradual, progressive thing.
Q.
Is the roadmap for substitution still the peace agreement between the Santos government and the FARC?
A.
Yes, yes.
It is our road map on many issues: agrarian reform, drug policy, memory, victims….
The peace agreement is a source of daily consultation for the current government, as is the report of the Truth Commission.
Q.
The National Development Plan contemplates the legalization of the alternative uses of coca, marijuana and the poppy. Will cocaine come?
R.
I am emphatic: cocaine is not.
As long as the international concert does not go in that direction, we cannot risk taking that step.
Q.
Why give the president extraordinary powers to regulate those alternative uses?
R.
Because that discussion can take us a long time.
Look how many times it has been moved before Congress to repeal the prohibition of cannabis.
It seems that we are finally going to achieve it, with a project that came from behind and has had the support of this Government.
By eliminating the ban, the discussion will be opened as to whether it will be free production like avocados or potatoes, or strongly regulated.
I am in favor of the second option: demanding quality conditions, ceilings, licenses.
Q.
A fundamental actor in anti-drug policy is the United States. What have they conveyed about the change in focus?
R.
I see a spirit of collaboration, of understanding.
His policy is not the same as 15 or 20 years ago.
They have new problems that have nothing to do with Colombia.
Of course they are concerned about cocaine use, but they know that Colombians have helped them a lot and we know that we have had a friendly government for many things.
That relationship will continue.
They are two countries that have been friends for 200 years.
Q.
Has the United States expressed any concerns about the handling of the extradition?
R.
As it has maintained the same rhythm, number and sense of previous governments, there is tranquility.
We have also agreed that if the Government, as a result of a demobilization, submission or political agreement with the ELN, decides not to grant some extraditions, we will agree to resolve the disagreement in a civilized manner.
That already happened with the Santos government.
Q.
Speaking of rhythms, at the beginning we talked about a legislative agenda full of projects, are yours going to go ahead?
A.
I hope so.
We will do all the effort.
If not, we will insist.
Q.
Some, such as submission to justice, have more time pressure. How are they prioritized?
R.
Under the command of the Minister of the Interior, who defines the schedule.
We are aware that the agenda is very ambitious and that we will have to prioritize.
We are all willing that if the project for which one worked cannot happen now but months later, then we accept and support the one that has priority at that time.
Q.
But the one who hits first hits twice...
A.
Hopefully.
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