Avigdor Kahalani is the third of the recipients of the award of heroism that I had the chance to meet.
I saw Asa Kadmoni in his apartment in Tel Aviv, taking out the decoration from the thicket of eights in the closet in his room.
I knew Dan Ziv very well, who passed away a few months ago.
Kehlani Spon in his apartment in Tel Aviv with a breathtaking view of the Mediterranean Sea.
From the age of 3-4 he has explosions in his ears.
He remembers as a living memory the independence war in Ness Ziona and the Arabs beyond the fence, whom his family members knew, loading the shakers into sheets and leaving the village while pointing at the Jews with the palm of their hand on the throat - we will come back to slaughter you.
He was burned in a burning tank in the six days.
He stopped the Syrians in '73.
In the cabinet of souvenirs and pictures you can see the picture of his brother Emanuel, who at that time was fighting on the trench front.
Where was your brother Emmanuel killed?
"My brother Emmanuel was killed in Hamotel. This Hamotel..."
Know, I was in the section.
"So this is my brother, on the right here in the picture. And my wife's brother, he was killed crossing the canal. My brother got married a week before the war."
He interrupts the flow of his speech.
"Excuse me, this is Brigade Seven on the line.
Honorable Major General. Okay... Ten. Yes, you told me. But you didn't give a date... That sounds fine to me. Will you come to Emek Baka? Okay."
My brother was killed in the 82nd Battalion.
"What?! When?"
In the summer of '69.
"I just got out of a hospital at the time. From '67 to May '68 I was in a hospital. Then I was bandaged, bandaged and all kinds of things. I underwent 12 plastic surgeries. Then they told me, 'Listen, you're still bandaged.' I said, 'Give me I'm a graduate of Ort, I had a professional matriculation. 'Give me studies at the IDF high school.'
I studied at Beit Hayal in Tel Aviv.
In '69, in April, I was commander of the artillery section at the armory school.
I faked my profile, and went on a skydiving course.
Exhausted I was on review teams.
Then they assigned me to the school's primary and secondary school."
Nevertheless, we gave you a battalion in the 7th brigade.
"Yes. After I was in the FOM.
Then they gave me a reserve battalion.
No one was looking for me.
I said I would do anything.
I made a strategic decision that I will not be poor in this country, it is not an easy decision.
Naturally there was trauma.
I was in a burning tank, in the six days."
In the battles in '73, did you feel any effect from the six days?
"When I started fighting, I felt my mouth dry up. It's normal. I took water. The only one I talked to about it was me with myself. Not with my wife, not with my friends. And at night, when I entered the position - I saw a tank in my position and shot it. A Syrian inside my position . When it was burning, I saw another tank about eight meters away from it. Then I shot it too. I remember the second one better than the first tank. Why? Because I saw the commander of the tank trying to get out of it all in flames. Then I saw myself, and I got shot. I felt like My whole body goes silent. I literally saw him and wanted to jump to go save him. I saw myself! I got over it and moved on. But let's just say, it was in my subconscious."
Still, you gave orders there.
"Yes. I've flown in many planes. At 5 or 6 G you can't move your head, you have to push it from below. Then I pushed my head and kept fighting."
So your instinct was to cut contact.
"Yes, yes. I knew that, just like if you fall off your bike, it stays with you. It is likely that if you get into a similar situation, if you see the fire and are shot at, you will likely return to the previous situation. And I am a soldier, I am not a soldier who hides behind a rock ".
But there was no situation where the soldiers were asking, where is the general?
"What the hell!
There is a saying that says, it's after a war, 'Sorry, but we didn't see the commander's back'.
This is a bad sign.
I'm always ahead, the first."
There will be elections, you will change
Let's move in the context of '73 to the present day.
I know this unit.
Today I see officers from the unit who signed some letter and also used the terminology of the intelligence, that they don't want the silence of the horns again.
They want to warn.
"There are groups in our country that have decided to differentiate themselves from the people. And I, on the brink, do not accept it. In no way. There have been many initiatives like this for years. They make a list of champions against, champions in favor, sub-champions against, armorers in favor. Pilots in favor , counter-pilots, and so on. In my world view, I really don't accept it. I think that once you get off the uniform, you are just like a citizen. The one who raises chickens on the border of Lebanon and the one who works in agriculture in the Arabah, in my opinion, they are the same; also a gatekeeper at a school - their voice The same thing. And if there is someone here who comes out and says 'we...' what is he broadcasting? We are a certain elite group, of pilots, of armorers, of champions and sub-champions, and we are opposed. We are the right-wing marker of society, and hence please pay attention to listen To us. And I don't accept that."
They say they refuse to volunteer for the reserves, and only in an emergency if they receive orders will they show up.
"I don't accept this thing. Do you want? Go demonstrate. It's perfectly fine for me. But don't distinguish yourself. I heard that there was a call from Danny Yatom and Ehud Barak to refuse. I think they are irresponsible. What do they want? My soul dies with Philistines ? What is this thing anyway? After all, when they call for Meri citizens, then what, they will cut off the electricity and close other things and they won't be able to drive on the roads? And then they won't pay taxes? What is this call not to serve in the army? They were in elite units! They were ready to give the their souls for the State of Israel."
But they come and say, at point X it is a dictatorship.
"Then let them hold another election and change the government. Who determined that this is a dictatorship? I am not defending any side. I was ready today to donate my body and soul to be the mediator between the two sides. And I was a minister in the government, I was a member of the Knesset. The basic laws - I enacted them. There were 30 of us in the hall when we enacted these basic laws."
Basic law: human dignity and freedom?
"Yes, I was in the courtroom. It's been 30 years. I was a member of the Knesset in the Labor Party. The point is where does it become a dictatorship. It's a human decision. You can tell me it's a dictatorship. I say: It's not a dictatorship! Where is the measure of a dictatorship? Was this government elected? Yes. In a democracy, a government must be elected by the people? Yes. Now, if they want to change unacceptable laws, then okay. Elections are coming, and the law is changed. If these laws are not good for the people of Israel, then the people of Israel will throw out the The government, right? The people are not stupid."
They go to the point of absurdity and say, this majority can cancel the elections altogether.
He bursts out laughing.
"It's funny. What, there won't be elections every four years? The Knesset members can never do that. It's not Thanksgiving, where you go to the turkeys and tell them, I can preempt your slaughter. There are no such concepts! It's terminology who are using it to exacerbate the conflict."
Intentionally exaggerate the statements?
"Unequivocally. These are slogans. It's brainwashing those who are listening. You throw people a slogan, and Barak said and he said - that's how you engineer the brain. And then people keep repeating, 'Yes, but that would be a dictatorship.' So tell me exactly what they are The changes. We'll go through problem by problem and solve them. Attorney General? In all countries it's divided into two positions, and that's how it should be in my opinion. I can give examples of what I've been through in my life."
Legal advisor and attorney general?
"Distribute it to a legal advisor to the government and another official who will be the prosecutor. They sewed up six cases for me after I was a minister, for something that did not exist. I asked to see Eliakim Rubinstein. He was afraid of the prosecutor's office, and did not agree to meet with me. Two and a half years were taken from my life because he did not agree to meet me for five minutes. If there was someone else, one a prosecutor and one a consultant, then he receives these things because his job is to protect me and guide me."
Maybe they wanted to frighten: look, we don't account for Kahlani either.
"Look, it's clear they wanted to shoot down an eagle, if I'm an eagle. I didn't commit any crime. A judge tells them: 'No case, answer.' No one to go to. You're talking about protecting human rights? I'm also a human being. It's true that I was a minister before, but the man who was supposed to protect me didn't protect me. They didn't even look at me through binoculars, because I wasn't interested in them."
Burnt tanks and fuses
How did you feel when you suddenly saw that the tank was being towed? Do you know the tank in Tel Ski?
"Unequivocally. The centurions who fought there were still in service years later. I was still the 7th centurion brigade.
It's not the centurion who was in the war there physically, he was symbolic.
As in the 77th Battalion memorial. This is not the tank that was in the war, but the T-62 is the tank that we hit on the spot.
But they symbolize the three tanks that ran to Tel Ski to save those who were titled, and these tanks were destroyed."
Were they from 188?
"They were in the 188th division, but the brigade received one battalion out of seven. It's the 82nd battalion that you know. It received it the day before the war. And there in that corner was Danny Levin's company. He was captured later. But the tanks are a symbol, and they go up there a lot A lot of buses. Make a website out of it, put up the biggest Israeli flag in the country and put pictures of the fallen."
How do you relate to this matter of appropriating the Yom Kippur war as a protest?
"The Yom Kippur War is a trauma in the heart of the nation. Now, when you want to take off from the trauma, it gives a kind of legitimacy, because 'I was there on Yom Kippur.' Two aspects. One, you're taking the tank and you didn't ask anyone. But more than that: you're taking a tank - where? Attack the Israeli Knesset with a tank with this symbolism? The Israeli Knesset, the bastion of democracy? You're going to put a tank, position it and aim the cannon To the Israeli Knesset?! What are we talking about? They say: 'We come to protect democracy.'
Is that how you see it?
"Unequivocally. I'm in favor of demonstrations, let them do everything, but what is this?!"
What do you say to people, reservists, when they hear Barak, Yair Golan, Danny Yatom - called the refuseniks, actually?
"I say, you can listen. But you must listen and you must carry out. There is no such thing as a human being who is going to destroy this country for us. None of us has the right to come and say, I am going to destroy this country. When you destroy the country, you also destroy these Those who are in the second camp, you are not only destroying yourself. Shut off the electricity, abandon security, you are harming the entire State of Israel. In the name of what? In the name of democracy that no one knows how to quantify.
"Is there some mathematical formula for when you are a democracy and when you are a dictatorship? I say to the reservists, don't listen to these calls. You may have different opinions than this government, but on the day of command we all hold the flag of the country. Want to change the government? In a year, in Two years, they will change the government. Let them go to the cemetery and see. They are lying there so that they will live! They gave us life, and suddenly you are at a loss to know."
Did you get to meet some of the protestors? I met such people, from the kibbutz, from all kinds of places. They are in an extreme emotional state.
"We're mixing joy with joy here. They want to return Deri to the government, and it's as if it's become part of the legal coup, as they call it. Matter of fact, according to the law, a prime minister, until he's convicted - stays. You have to fire a minister from his position. That's why in this issue of Deri's return is something that is infuriating, in my opinion. The Supreme Court has already ruled on its judgment, so to bypass it? There should not be a situation where hands are folded in front of the Supreme Court.
There should be unequivocal agreement.
At this point in the end a formula will be found.
I said, I am ready to be the bridge between these bodies.
But they won't call me, I'm not innocent.
I already have white hairs on my back.
Mediation, in my opinion, is the role of the president.
The president needs to take command.
Leadership is taken, not given.
You are walking for a cause.
The lighthouse is the president."
How does he get it?
"Tell them, you will be at my place tomorrow at 8 am."
Lapid and Netanyahu? Lapid and Rival Levin?
"Yes. And he will be remembered in all the days of the people, from the Sanhedrin until today. They will remember Boji Herzog. He has the authority to give the mandate to the Prime Minister, and he also has the moral authority. He stands above the entire people, so there is a possibility that he will put his hands into the fire and pull out this hot iron from there. He needs to get up and do something."
You know that Herzog's father, Haim Herzog, wrote an article back in 1994 that the High Court of Justice should be limited. He did not understand why they should interfere in everything - from the gas mask dispute to interference in other security decisions. A series of things. "This is one of the problems
- got confused
People have forgotten that a government is supposed to govern.
And we elect our government to govern, but there are no tools to govern."
Like Nahal Zin in winter
Ehud Barak cited some theory, that if 3.5 percent of the population is mobilized to protest - the government falls. And I say, even worse than that.
"There are people who think that when God passed and distributed wisdom, He stopped in certain places and not in other places. Even those who came from Tunisia, or Yemen, or other countries have wisdom. There are smart people in this country. You can't work on them with the eyes."
The fear is something more drastic, to eliminate the government's ability to govern. Then either there are elections or some field marshal is called, save us.
"It won't happen. This country is stronger than its leaders. The country is like Nahal Zin in winter. Put a truck in it, put rocks in it - it runs, to the sea of death. Another thing that flows - a man, the owner of a high-tech company, came on television to announce that he is taking the money from the country. Take it and go quietly. Why do you have to do it from the bouncer when I'm standing from below?"
The tank from the UN war that was stolen by the protestors against the legal reform, photo: Eyal Margolin, Gini
You belong to the '73 generation. Can you compare the current protest to the protest back then?
"The Yom Kippur War is a fracture. We received a slap on the cheek, and to this day the cheek is red. You know what? Maybe it's good that it broke out at this time. Because in '74 or '75 we wouldn't have stood for it, they were about to disband units. There is a God In the sky. How do I know? If he wanted to destroy us, he would have started the war on Rosh Hashanah. We were with the Mangalim, around the Sea of Galilee, stuck on Rosh Hashanah on the way to the Golan Heights, with four days of freedom."
were we wrong
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