The traffic light government wants to legalize cannabis, the CSU is strictly against it.
A debate between Klaus Holetschek and Katharina Schulze.
Munich – The greeting is friendly when Bavaria's Minister of Health Klaus Holetschek (58, CSU) and Greens' top candidate Katharina Schulze (37) meet in our editorial office.
Both have known each other for many years from the state parliament, they chat.
But as soon as the topic comes up - the plans of the traffic light coalition of SPD, Greens and FDP to legalize cannabis trade and consumption in Germany - there is a heated argument.
Once the minister even banged his hand on the table.
Minister of Health, is an occasional joint really more dangerous than the daily half beer after work that many people indulge in?
Holetscheck:
I don't want to downplay alcohol.
But with cannabis, completely different health aspects come into play.
As far as the danger of psychosis is concerned, for example, you can't compare it at all.
Making this drug a legal stimulant downplays the issue and creates major new problems.
Schulze:
But you misjudge reality, Mr. Holetschek.
Cannabis has long been a part of our society, because many people already use this drug today.
That's a fact.
You can now deal with this in two ways.
In fact?
Schulze:
Either we continue to demonize it and rely on repression.
But that has not brought anything in the past, as the increasing consumption shows.
Or you think about how to get the problems that are there under control.
The federal government is doing this with its key points draft, which is not just about decriminalizing cannabis, but also about health protection and protecting young people in particular.
After all, buying or consuming cannabis would only be allowed from the age of 18.
The dealer on the corner, on the other hand, doesn't ask for your ID today.
In addition, a cannabis tax would be levied on the trade, the proceeds of which could flow into prevention.
Holetschek:
With all due respect, that's naive.
It's like setting a fire first and then buying a fire extinguisher.
Schulze:
No.
We focus on prevention without foaming at the mouth.
And we're tackling the realities.
Cannabis is a drug just like alcohol or cigarettes.
Only today, cannabis users buy dirty weed on the black market that is harmful to their health.
I also trust responsible adults to decide for themselves whether they would rather have a beer or smoke a joint after work.
Cannabis legalization in Germany: Holetschek and Schulze in debate
Ms. Schulze believes in personal responsibility.
Is the CSU now the ban party here, Mr. Holetschek?
Holetschek:
It has nothing to do with personal responsibility if people are no longer supposed to eat meat but are allowed to smoke weed.
In addition, I find this equality unspeakable.
There is a big difference between a beer and a joint because cannabis has very different serious effects, especially in young people up to around 25 years of age, and has been shown to damage brain development.
Just ask the child and adolescent psychiatrists.
Schulze:
I'm also in talks with them.
And of course I see the dangers of all drugs.
But whether more people will smoke weed after legalization is questionable: Studies from other countries show that in the medium to long term cannabis will no longer be smoked just because the legal situation changes.
The important thing for me is that legalization means functioning protection of minors, uncultivated grass, money for prevention, less work for the judiciary and the police and, on top of that, drying up the black market as much as possible.
Holetschek:
That's unrealistic.
Of course there will be more weed then.
And of course the stuff isn't just sold in stores, but the black market continues and remains attractive, especially for young people, because it's cheaper.
This is shown by experiences from countries such as Canada and states in the USA where cannabis has been legalized.
In addition, the negative consequences for brain development, as mentioned, can be observed up to the age of around 25, which does not end with the 18th birthday.
Immediately, cannabis affects attention, impulse control, and short-term memory. Cannabis consumption can have long-term consequences, especially at a young age - since the human brain is still developing up to the age of 25. Scientists largely agree that consumption during puberty increases the risk of psychosis, depression or addiction.
Legalization: Schulze on further measures - "The way ends with cannabis"
Where is the limit, Ms. Schulze?
The parliamentary group leader of the Berlin Greens is of the opinion that even the smallest amounts of harder drugs should no longer be punished.
Schulze:
That's not an issue at all.
For me, the path ends with cannabis.
In addition, a brief fact check: The scientific community does not see a greater affinity for other drugs among cannabis users than among smokers or people who drink alcohol.
Holetschek:
Of course there is a connection, for example with cannabis and cocaine.
Schulze:
That also applies to alcohol and cocaine.
Holetschek
: As I said: I don't want to downplay alcohol.
But when we legalize cannabis, we're going down a very different path.
Of course, there are also economic interests behind this.
Ms. Schulze mentioned that the traffic light also hopes to generate tax revenue.
But that opens Pandora's box.
Legalizing cannabis would also have economic effects. According to a study by the Heinrich Heine University in Düsseldorf and the German Hemp Association, legal smoking would bring the state 4.7 billion euros. This would include 1.8 billion euros in revenue from the cannabis tax. The remaining amount is made up of, among other things, trade and sales tax revenue and savings in criminal prosecution. In addition, 27,000 legal jobs would be created.
Bavaria's Minister of Health Holetschek against legalization: "It didn't work well anywhere"
Do you fear that Germany could become a drug paradise?
Holetschek:
Look at the Netherlands.
The opening of the cannabis market was the beginning of a completely wrong development and the gateway for drug gangs.
If you talk to those responsible there, they say they will never do it again.
However, the traffic light deliberately wants to do some things differently than in the Netherlands.
Holetschek:
It didn't work well anywhere.
Also in Canada, legalization has brought a surge in cannabis users...
Schulze:
… but also no increase in other drugs.
Portugal has also chosen a wise path.
And I can tell you: In 10 to 15 years we will think back on this conversation and see that Germany, too, has managed to reconcile the protection of minors, health protection and personal responsibility.
Today, on the other hand, adults are criminalized for the fact that an after-work joint is closer to them than a wheat beer - which, by the way, is also an unnecessary huge burden for the judiciary and the police.
In 2021, 65 percent (181,040 cases) of consumption-related drug offenses in Germany were related to cannabis. In the case of drug trafficking offenses, 59 percent of the cases involved cannabis trafficking or smuggling. Consuming cannabis is not prohibited, but possession is illegal in all states. In Bavaria, as in nine other federal states, there is a tolerance value of six grams for personal use. Up to this amount, the judiciary may turn a blind eye. In Berlin, this tolerance limit is 15 grams.
Cannabis legalization violates EU law - Schulze urges patience
Where we are on the subject of justice: With its plan, the traffic light is still facing hurdles under European law.
Holetschek:
The EU clearly prohibits the trade in cannabis.
I really cannot understand how, as a legislator, you can get something going that so clearly violates European law.
Schulze:
I think it's good for our democratic culture if we wait for the draft law to come through.
So far there is only a key issues paper.
I trust the lawyers in the Federal Ministry of Health that they can assess how to proceed.
Holetschek:
There are really more important issues that need to be dealt with there, such as care reform, the shortage of skilled workers or digitization.
Schulze:
You can also do things in parallel.
But the decisive question is not legal anyway, but how we want to deal with the fact that quite a few people here want to consume cannabis.
The sale, cultivation, manufacture and supply of drugs is prohibited in the European Union. This emerges from a framework decision from 2004. Cannabis has been mentioned by name as a drug in the German Narcotics Act since 1971. This means that Germany would violate applicable EU law if it were legalized. The EU Commission could initiate infringement proceedings. At the moment, some member states are already not interpreting the Brussels regulations too strictly. In the Netherlands, for example, the sale of cannabis is allowed - but not the cultivation. Other countries like Portugal tolerate consumption.
Cannabis legalization in Germany: "Have you ever smoked pot, Mr. Minister?"
Finally, we would be interested to know how you personally deal with the topic.
Have you ever smoked weed, Minister?
Holetschek:
No, not once.
But I smoked heavily until about twelve years ago.
cigarettes and cigarillos.
I'm really thankful today that I managed to stop doing that.
Ms. Schulze?
Schulze:
I've never smoked weed, never even puffed on a cigarette.
And I don't drink alcohol either.
I just don't want to.
However, I can also advocate for the legalization of cannabis, although I would never want to use it myself.
Because it corresponds to my image of man that enlightened citizens decide for themselves.
You became a mother in 2021.
Will you ever allow your son to use cannabis?
Schulze:
I'll explain the risks to him.
But he is his own person.
When he is old enough he will go his own way.
I will trust him to make the right decisions.
Holetschek:
My children are 26 and 23 years old.
I too have tried to give them the right messages and trust them.
There is nothing more you can do as a parent.
The conversation was conducted by: Leonie Hudelmaier and Sebastian Horsch
