Iván Cepeda: "I hope that in a few years we will have a government of national concertation, like in Northern Ireland"

Senator Iván Cepeda poses for a portrait in the Congress of the Republic in Bogotá, on November 16, 2022.Diego Cuevas

The stooped and stealthy figure of Iván Cepeda walks through a courtyard with thick columns surrounded by murals depicting the violent Mexican revolution.

On the walls of the old San Ildefonso school, in the historic center of Mexico City, Diego Rivera and José Clemente Orozco immortalized men's desire for change.

Cepeda (Bogotá, 60 years old), who was wearing his characteristic mandarin collar shirt this morning, has dedicated his entire life to this task.

President Gustavo Petro fully trusts him to reach an agreement that demobilizes the ELN, the last guerilla in Latin America.

Cepeda, however, believes that something even greater must emerge from the peace process, something unprecedented in the history of Colombia: a government of national consensus in the style of other countries that have suffered brutal violence, such as Northern Ireland.

—When could that agreement be reached, after Petro's mandate?

- We'll see when.

That doesn't have dates, but it's a possibility.

Cepeda attends this interview on a stone bench, shortly after it was announced that the Government and the ELN have agreed on the agenda that will serve as a roadmap for the negotiations, which will continue in Havana, Cuba.

Someday this story may decorate the walls.

Ask.

Now that the agenda has been set, everything should speed up.

Are we entering a time of greater concretion?

Answer.

The new peace agenda for Colombia is not just a list of issues, it is a vision for the country.

What the preamble to this agenda does is show that, unlike other processes that have taken place in the past, the problem does not only consist of an agreement between the Government and the ELN, but rather it is a question of summoning the country to the what we have called a grand national agreement.

It is a different vision of peace, in which something that has been elusive in Colombia is attempted: a national pact.

Q.

Does the ELN share this global vision of the country or is it more regionally focused, in the territories where it has a presence?

R.

The ELN agrees and has raised it at other times.

For a long time he insisted on a figure that was the national convention, that is, an instance to cite all the sectors that could contribute to that purpose of the agreement.

But of course, this process also includes the territories, it includes the transformations, the voices and the participation of the communities.

The agenda clearly says that we need the military confrontation to de-escalate as politics escalates.

So that the bilateral ceasefire, first of fire, and we hope soon of hostilities, becomes a reality.

Q.

In how long do you estimate that this ceasefire could take place?

R.

We do not start from scratch, but from an experience accumulated by the ELN.

In 2017, the ELN carried out a cessation for 101 days that was successful.

The Government and the military who are present as observers at the table also come from that process and some from the negotiations with the FARC.

They bring a wealth of military experience in ceasefires and hostilities.

Q.

The cessation of hostilities goes beyond silencing the weapons.

R.

Hostilities is a much broader concept.

The concept of fire is restricted to offensive confrontations between the opposing forces, between the guerrillas and the military and police forces.

Hostilities are a range of actions that often involve attacks against the population or civilian targets.

It is a concept that will be reached gradually, progressively.

Q.

The ELN would finalize a ceasefire with the government, but would it be possible to achieve a larger one that includes the dissidents of the FARC or the Gulf clan?

R.

That is not contemplated.

Q.

Have you not been surprised that the ELN does not ask for a Constituent Assembly, as other guerrillas have done that have sat down to negotiate with the State?

R.

No, it seems to me that it is a sign of understanding that not everything is restricted to juridical-legal figures, that it has been shown in another era that they do not solve problems.

The constituents are of no use if they are not based on a national pact like the one we are proposing.

Here the agreement is more important than the legal legal figure.

Q.

That pact comes out of this negotiation, but the rest of society would have to join it.

R.

The pact can be embodied in a government.

The figure used in the new agenda is that we require a political and social alliance for a national agreement.

What is that alliance embodied in?

It could be in a government or in several national governments, and also territorial ones, of concertation.

Q.

From the Government of Gustavo Petro?

R.

We would see when.

That doesn't have dates, but it's a possibility.

This obviously emerges from dialogue and participation.

Beyond a Constituent Assembly, which is a figure that has become a cliché, this requires that there be a true concertation of the country, of its dissuasive forces, of the powers, nationally and territorially, capable of transforming.

Elsewhere it has been done.

Q.

In which mirror do you look?

A.

In Northern Ireland, where there was a coalition government.

I was very impressed by a visit in which we went to learn about the process in Ireland.

We were received by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister.

One was Mcguinness, who was the head of the IRA, a Catholic man, an independentist;

and the other man, I don't remember his name, who was loyalist, ultra-conservative, who had also been involved in the armed confrontation.

And I was very surprised that they both said that, even though they didn't have much personal empathy for each other, they were running a country together.

That marked me a lot.

Why in Colombia we could not do it?

In Colombia it was always said that an ex-guerrilla would never govern and today we have one.

Why not dream of an alliance that brings everyone together?

This is a personal vision, these are my ideas.

Q.

Last week, the president had a very busy few days, with many problems surrounding his government.

Does this instability permeate the negotiation and does the ELN use it to pressure?

A.

No, there is no such thing.

Our discussions revolve around substantive issues: the political recognition of the ELN, its legal and juridical recognition, the agenda, its points, the visions of the cessation... Political issues and how the government is does not affect.

We do not see in the ELN delegation any desire to use these elements to generate results at the table.

Q.

What did you feel when Francia Márquez told the ELN leaders here today that it is the first time she has seen their eyes and does not feel afraid?

R.

Francia speaks as a social fighter who has defended her territory, who has built peace with her community.

So I think she has all the moral authority to speak in a setting like this and be listened to with great respect and openness, both from the ELN delegation and from the government.

Q.

Do you sometimes have the feeling that the ELN is trying to impose its utopian vision of the world?

R.

I see that we are building a shared vision.

Q.

How can you get around issues like the ELN believing in a direct democracy if there is a representative one in Colombia?

R.

They have a critical vision of current democracy in Colombia, but they do not rule out representative democracy as a possibility.

They are not seen in the Congress of the Republic, but they are in the local powers.

That's what they said.

Obviously, they understand that the existing State in Colombia today is a reality that is not going to be erased with an agreement.

We will have to make reforms and build realities within the legality that this system offers.

The ELN has a fairly mature vision regarding the type of State and model in which we are.

Of course, he is very critical of that.

He considers that those spaces are corroded by corruption.

Q.

Now that the road map is in place, what can the ELN become?

A.

I think it will probably become a political force.

That's what everything points to, but they also talk about being a social force and having a presence in the territories.

Q.

You speak of ending paramilitarism.

Does that fall within the total peace of Petro?

R.

That is the Constitution of Colombia.

There is an article, 22a, that prohibits paramilitarism.

Q.

But here they say to eradicate...

R.

That's what it's all about, putting an end to it.

Q.

But can that be done during the negotiations?

R.

That is a duty of the State.

The State is committed to that, it cannot question its duties.

This delegation does not do like other government delegations at negotiating tables, which turned their duties into a fight with their counterparts.

The Constitution says that it is a crime to create paramilitary groups, support them, support them, finance them, encourage them.

It is the duty of the Government to put an end to paramilitarism.

It is not a matter that is subject to negotiation, it is a duty.

Q.

_

When you talk about the participation of society, how can it be specified?

R.

It is the first item on the agenda.

We are going to design it with the people.

It can be specified in multiple ways, not a single model.

There will be one in the territories, in the social sectors and there will also be national participation in the construction of the agreement.

So we will be designing the mechanisms for that.

It has been said that it is a binding and transformative participation, that is to say, that is not just that people make some proposals, no.

Here's something else.

It means that people make some requests, but also participate in the execution and management of policies.

Q.

The time will come when it is time to implement the agreement and ensure the safety of the demobilized guerrillas.

How to achieve the latter if there have been many former members of the FARC assassinated?

R.

We will arrive at that moment and we will apply ourselves.

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