Interview with the Catalan president Pere Aragonès: "I am convinced that Catalonia is going to be an independent State"

This 2023 will be a key year for the independence of Catalonia, says

, president of that autonomous community that in 2017 shook the territorial integrity of Spain in the separatist attempt that, for now, continues to be

of a part of the Catalans what a reality

At that time, the launch of the self-determination referendum on October 1, 2017, which the Spanish Constitutional Court

, and a unilateral declaration of independence led to the dismissal of the Catalan government, the dissolution of its Parliament and the intervention of the autonomous by the Madrid Executive, chaired by Mariano Rajoy, of the Popular Party (PP).

The president of the Generalitat at that time, Carles Puigdemont, fled to Belgium with some of his ministers (consellers).

His vice, Oriol Junqueras, and the rest of the cabinet stayed in Catalonia.

to between 9 and 13 years in prison.

Until, in June 2021, Rajoy's successor, Pedro Sánchez, pardoned them.

Sánchez, of the PSOE, managed to add the necessary votes to become president of the first democratic coalition government in Spain because he had the support of the majority Catalan nationalist party, Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya (ERC), which even today conditions his adherence to

de according to certain requirements that nobody vociferates, although they are being specified.

The release of Catalan politicians would have been one.

The revision and disappearance of the Criminal Code of the crime of sedition, for which the independentistas were convicted, another.

The main one, however, was

that includes periodic meetings between Pedro Sánchez and the president of the Catalan Generalitat, "to find a political solution to a political conflict", Pere Aragonès often repeats.

His greatest ambition is to agree with the Spanish State

so that the Catalans decide if they want to be an independent republic from the rest of Spain.

Or not.

While the boxes are advanced, Aragonès is concentrating these days

Visiting Buenos Aires

He went through Bogotá, where he announced the creation of a Catalan office.

And

, where he will inaugurate the Delegation of the Government of Catalonia in the Southern Cone.

The president of the Spanish autonomous region of Catalonia, Pere Aragonès, in Bogotá.

Photo: EFE

Before embarking on this trip that includes stops in Colombia,

, Aragonès received

at the Palacio de la Generalitat, a jewel of Gothic architecture in Barcelona.

-Is this the year of the referendum?

-This is the year in which an agreement has to be reached in Catalonia to build a proposal and then negotiate it with the State for a recognized referendum and so that the result can be implemented.

The best way, and I think it is the most effective way and the only way that we can envision at this time for a referendum in Catalonia to be accepted by the international community, is that there can also be an agreement with the State.

This would respond to a majority of the citizens of Catalonia who, regardless of the political party, agree that the conflict between Catalonia and Spain must be resolved by voting.

-How do you negotiate with the State having suffered a blow such as the separation of the independence bloc (in October last year Junts per Catalunya, government partners of ERC, the Aragonès party, left the Generalitat)?

Junts does not share its dialogue strategy with Moncloa and ensures that the break puts the independence project at risk.

Is it so?

Aragonès received Clarín at the Palace of the Generalitat.

Photo: Cézaro De Luca

-The independence of Catalonia is going to be achieved through democratic validation.

And the best democratic validation is the one accepted by all parties.

In a society like the Catalan one, I think it is the possible path towards independence.

I am also in dialogue with the rest of the pro-independence parties so that, with their contributions, we can enrich this proposal.

But for those who from the pro-independence point of view say that this is a path that is not viable, I ask: What is the alternative?

What is the alternative to achieve our objective, which is that of an independent Catalonia that can respond to the challenges that we as a society have in economic, social, environmental and cultural matters?

-You usually repeat the words “agreement”, “dialogue” with respect to the Madrid government.

From that agreement and from that dialogue you already obtained a pardon for the imprisoned independentistas and that the crime of sedition disappeared from the Penal Code.

What do you need to get?

-It is not complete yet, but we have gone through the first phase, which is the phase of stopping the repression and acquiring some positive results such as pardons, such as the reform of the Penal Code that has repealed the crime of sedition.

There are pending results, but the next phase that we must open in this process of political negotiation is the substance of the matter: the political relationship between Catalonia and Spain.

How is that relationship today?

-It is a relationship of conflict at the moment and we must transform this conflict into a dynamic of negotiation and political solution.

And the political solution in a democracy must culminate in a referendum.

Therefore, I am willing to listen to all the proposals made by the parties, but I already have mine.

As long as there is no alternative, I am going to defend internal dialogue in Catalonia as the best way, negotiation with the State and finally a democratic validation of what the political relationship between Catalonia and Spain should be.

It is a question that does not work for the independentists and neither for the non-independentists.

"The relationship with Spain is one of conflict at the moment and we must transform this conflict into a dynamic of negotiation."

Photo: Cézaro De Luca

-Are you aware that this is the moment in which you could get what you are looking for?

At the end of the year there will be elections and his interlocutor, Pedro Sánchez, could not continue in Moncloa.

If the PP wins, the scenario for the negotiation with Catalonia would be much more hostile, right?

-A process of negotiating a conflict that has historical roots cannot be done in a few months.

This is not an excuse for not having results.

Not even so that we can't get to the bottom of the negotiation.

We are going to maintain our will to negotiate whoever is in Moncloa.

But I am fully aware that a Popular Party government would be much more hostile.

This is precisely why I believe that the Socialist Party should be much more committed to dialogue and negotiation and take advantage of this year 2023 to get to the bottom of the issue that is the political relationship between Catalonia and Spain.

-Catalonia is the stone in the shoe of the national government?

The rest of the political forces accuse President Sánchez of negotiating with the Catalan independence movement and pays a high political cost for that

-In a negotiation, political costs are paid by both parties.

Pedro Sánchez was sworn in as president with the votes of the Esquerra Republicana a month after the leader of our party (Oriol Junqueras) was sentenced to 13 years in prison and the government of Pedro Sánchez was indicted.

Imagine the political cost we have had to bear to open up an opportunity for negotiation.

And move from a conflict to a political solution.

And we are still on the way.

In a complex negotiation, both parties have to take risks.

We have assumed ours.

Secondly, the Spanish political culture is so nationalistic that trying to find a political and democratic solution to the obvious problem with Catalonia is perceived in many quarters as a betrayal.

Talking and dialogue is never a betrayal.

A clear message to Spanish nationalism: Spain has an inferiority complex in the face of what its State is and the fortress if it believes that sitting at a table to talk with Catalonia is giving up".

-It is not giving up but it is making concessions...

-You have to assess what is the alternative to these concessions.

And if the alternative is better or worse.

That Catalonia is in a situation of permanent conflict with Spain because there is a conflict of a democratic nature, for me it is not a better alternative to starting a negotiation.

Perhaps there is a right-wing Spanish nationalism that should maintain this dynamic of conflict because they believe that conflict is better than negotiation.

-Was your political cost the definitive break with Junts for sitting at that dialogue table with Madrid?

-I am convinced that it is not definitive because the shared desire for Catalonia to be an independent State will allow that in the near future there can be a shared strategy and we can join again in parliaments, in governments, in all institutional spheres .

"Catalan society is facing the economic consequences of a pandemic".

Photo: Cézaro De Luca

-The fervor that was in the streets in 2017 was fading, fraying in the face of an independence that is delayed, that does not arrive.

Are the Catalans tired?

-Catalan society is facing the economic consequences of a pandemic and also a global economic situation that is having a great impact in Europe, especially due to the consequences of the war in Ukraine.

What I perceive is that Catalan society asks those in power to respond to these questions, which are fundamental to the social and economic agenda.

But, in no case, should this imply any resignation or replace the importance of the independence process.

It is difficult for a society to be permanently mobilized to the maximum for a long time.

There are stages.

I think that now it can be explained by the consequences that the pandemic has had, but evidently when we look at the electoral processes, the pro-independence majorities in Parliament repeat themselves.

-You said that "the process" (process towards independence) has not died.

Taking this last stage into account, from 2017 until now, what stage are you in?

-We would have to define together and see if we agree on what the

is .

The political and democratic struggle to achieve the independence of Catalonia has not ended.

And I, as president of Catalonia, have not renounced independence.

I am going to continue working with all the lessons from the historical experience that we have and create the conditions for this to be possible.

-What are those conditions?

-A much larger majority, to be able to have an agreement between the different parties in which a democratic process is defined and in which we can all accept the result.

Also accept if "no" to independence comes out.

But with a legitimacy that we build together.

Being able to also have the understanding and support of the international community and, at the same time, make this necessary process of Catalonia a new State for Europe compatible with day-to-day governance, with the fundamental economic and social agenda.

"We are going to continue and we are continuing this peaceful and democratic fight to achieve the independence of Catalonia."

Photo: Cézaro De Luca

-If we talk about defining terms or expressions of the Catalan independence movement, what do they mean when they say: "We will do it again"?

-I suppose that each person who pronounces it thinks about it in their own way.

But I am convinced that Catalonia is going to be an independent State.

And that we are going to continue and we are continuing this peaceful and democratic struggle to achieve the independence of Catalonia.

There's no giving up here.

We continue with our project.

There's no giving up here.

We continue with our project"

-In 2021, during the campaign for the Catalan elections, I asked you if you, in the event that you were elected president, would use the unilateral route that Catalonia had used to try to declare itself independent in 2017. What would you answer today?

-The paths that we are prioritizing are negotiation, dialogue and an internationally recognized referendum.

And the best guarantee that it is so is that it is agreed between the parties.

I think it is the most effective way, the most realistic.

So, do you rule out the unilateral route?

-I think that the one who should rule it out is the State, which is the one who has acted unilaterally.

The most effective path has to be a path recognized by all parties.

Especially for a society like the Catalan one that is part of a European context and that must be able to decide its future in a context of legal certainty and international recognition.

-I notice it more moderate.

In 2021 he told me: "We are not going to give up any path"...

-As long as the State does not renounce any alternative, we are not going to renounce either.

The priority and the most effective path that will allow us to achieve independence is what I am defending: a negotiation process that culminates in a referendum recognized by all parties.

The priority and the most effective path that will allow us to reach independence is what I am defending: a negotiation process."

-Your mandate expires in 2025. Is Catalonia going to be independent during your government?

-Putting dates has been an exercise that we have done in the past in Catalan politics and it has never been of much use.

More important than the dates are the conditions.

I am going to work in this Legislature to get as close as possible to the conditions that allow Catalonia to decide its future in a recognized referendum and have the support of the international community.

-How effective is having international support?

Isn't it just a letter of good intentions?

-Our foreign policy, and we are going to visualize it on this trip, is not only accompaniment in this negotiation process with the State but also in matters of economic relations, cooperation in cultural and scientific material, collaboration in the environmental field or politics of gender, which is the framework of the agreement that I am going to sign with the government of the province of Buenos Aires.

In addition, the political experiences of other spheres interest us.

In Argentina, politics is very dynamic and observing these processes is interesting.

What I explain to my foreign interlocutors is that we are carrying out a negotiation process, that the will is to move from the conflict to a solution.

And that this solution, in my opinion, is a self-determination referendum for Catalonia.

- Has the word "referendum" not yet come up at that dialogue table between you and Pedro Sánchez?

-There is an opposition to enter into this issue on the part of the state government.

But there is a fundamental question: the Catalonia-Spain relationship, which is currently in conflict.

And it must be resolved.

My proposal is a referendum and Sánchez at some point, or the president who succeeds him, will have to put a proposal on the table.

-You have faith

-I have above all faith in the convictions and strength of the Catalan people.

Barcelona.

special envoy

ap​

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