Towards the end of our conversation, Thomas Erickson confesses: during the Zoom interview we conducted, he analyzed my personality, got to know me through every word I said, and after about two hours of conversation, he summarizes the findings, which we will get to shortly.
And it turns out I'm not alone.
Erikson (59), a behavioral science researcher and communication expert, developed the DISC model, a method for assessing personality types that originated in the work of the American psychologist Dr. William Moulton-Marston, from the beginning of the 20th century. Based on it, people can be divided into different types according to four Colors: Reds are dominant and ambitious, yellows are sociable and optimistic, greens are stable and kind, and blues are analytical and cautious.Erickson emphasizes that the method is based on psychological research and is in constant development.
He began his career coaching managers, and over time realized that his theory could be applied to any person.
In 2014, his first book, "Surrounded by Idiots", was published, which was translated into 60 languages and made him the most translated living Swedish author.
Among other things, he also lectured at companies such as Microsoft, Coca-Cola and IKEA.
Later he authored, among other things, the bestseller "Surrounded by Psychopaths", and his book "Surrounded by Bad Bosses (and Lazy Employees)" was recently published in Hebrew translation (Kinneret Zamora Publishing).
His next book, by the way, will deal with liars ("People say they are already dying to read it, because we all lie a little sometimes").
Erickson.
"Focus on the similarities, the good, and not the differences", photo: Carlos Ruiz
I'm curious: how fast do you decode a person's colors?
"Some people are easier to read. For example, five percent of people are characterized by only one color - red, yellow, green or blue. My wife, for example, is characterized only by red. But most people have two behaviors: the natural and the adapted. With me, for example, I have a lot Red, blue, and a little yellow, but I don't even have a hint of green."
How did you describe me during the conversation?
"It's important to say that neither of us spoke our native language during the conversation, so we don't have complete freedom of expression. But in your face I can see that you tend to laugh quite easily, and tend to see the positive side even when the situation is pessimistic. From your questions it is clear that you are interested in people, and you also came prepared For a conversation. From all of these I guess you are a combination of yellow and blue. Your body language is quiet, which is a blue trait, but your face and eyes are open, which is a yellow trait. And maybe you are a little more yellow than blue, because your questions develop and expand."
After the careful analysis (the full analysis is saved in the system), Erickson asks me with a smile: "We're still friends, aren't we?"
According to Erikson's method, people can be divided into different types, according to a key of four main colors: reds are dominant and ambitious, yellows are sociable and optimistic, greens are stable and kind, and blues are analytical
The time for idle calls
Erickson recently harnessed his extensive knowledge, as mentioned, to write the book "Surrounded by Bad Bosses", to make it easier for all of us to conduct ourselves professionally in times of routine, and certainly in times of crisis.
"I thought that after 25 years in the business I would be able to contribute a few things on the subject of management and leadership. At first I debated who the book should address, the managers or the employees, and in the end I decided that it would address both."
Indeed, the first part of the book is called "Surrounded by bad bosses", while the second part is called "Surrounded by lazy workers".
"In fact," says Erickson, "in the book I try to explain to employees what their managers want to achieve, and why it is so difficult for us to be led by certain people; I also try to explain to managers why their employees do not always achieve the desired results."
And this is the whole Torah on one foot, from the employee's side: red bosses tend to be clear and bright, and they make things happen, but also to be short-tempered.
As employees, you should approach them directly, focusing on results and goals.
If your boss is yellow, he will probably make sure to maintain good energy and inspiration.
With such managers you should be kind and warm, and even have idle conversations from time to time.
With such managers it is important to laugh occasionally, and not be completely technical.
The green boss strives for stability and will be more human, really part of the group of employees.
Sometimes he is excessively conservative, which delays the decision-making process.
With the green boss you shouldn't expect immediate answers, and you should maintain a certain level of ease.
The blue boss is the surgeon and the observer.
He is analytical, restrained and distant, so he must be approached with a high level of preparedness, with great thoroughness and precision.
Meryl Streep as a toxic boss in The Devil Wears Prada.
Erikson: "In a time of stress, a person characterized as red will show his anger in a very direct way", photo: Yehs
On the other hand, as managers, these are the things that are important to know about each of the employees: if your employee is red, he is probably businesslike and ambitious.
His work pace is fast, and he needs a direct and decisive manager.
If your employee is yellow, he is optimistic and spontaneous.
His work pace is fast, but he needs inspiration, so his manager must be stimulating, among other things because he hates routine and strives for status and flexibility, as well as recognition from others.
If your employee is green, he is considerate and understanding, friendly, but has a slow and steady work pace.
He needs a kind boss, as he has difficulty dealing with insensitivity and impatience.
And if your employee is blue - he is probably thorough and accurate.
He is afraid of looking stupid, so he will withdraw and avoid under pressure.
He needs an accurate and reliable manager who won't surprise him.
"As a rule," Erickson emphasizes, "being a boss is a simple thing, but being a leader is a complex communication process. Leaders are what you make of yourself," he emphasizes.
It is said that many of the readers of this article have found a job of their dreams, but they are surrounded by bad bosses. Is this a changeable situation? Unfortunately, most managers are not sufficiently aware of the importance of communication with employees.
"Unfortunately, you are absolutely right. We have no choice but to follow managers, unlike leaders, for example, whom we follow willingly. As an employee, you can always try to generate more communication, ask for more feedback, but at the same time - there are also people who will never learn and will never change, At least until the moment when they decide on a conscious change. You can try to create communication, but when the management is closed - it's a big problem. The lack of communication, of course, permeates the employees.
"I conduct workshops all over the world - and you won't believe how many times I have come across employees who complain that they simply do not understand what is wanted of them. This is probably also the reason why we see companies characterized by inefficiency. I hear employees who say that their managers failed to guide them properly , then we claimed that the same employee was not performing his job as expected of him. This is so common, and so stupid."
"I have met tens of thousands of leaders and managers. Only 10% are strong and inspiring. 70% are average, and 20% are so toxic that it is better to get rid of them, and one hour before. They can be psychopaths, inexperienced or unintelligent"
There is another issue here: when the whole purpose of work is to please the manager, the unique character of the employee is harmed.
"It can happen, yes. A few years ago I characterized a certain woman as yellow, that is, someone with an extroverted relationship orientation, a happy and inspiring person, creative. She wanted to be an accountant, which is of course the complete opposite of her character. So it is possible to make changes and precisions in favor of a particular job , but when we are asked to stray too far from our original nature, it will be difficult for all concerned. No one can twist themselves that far. Being someone you are not for a long time is not a recipe for good mental and social health.
"In such cases, you should approach the manager and tell him - I respect your demands, but I also have limits, and it is difficult for me to continue in this way. After that, you should ask him what he thinks about things, and from there have a conversation."
"Surrounded by bad bosses".
The book cover, photo: from the book
To avoid heartbreak during the job, Erickson says that there are hints that may help future employees stay away from positions or managers that do not suit them, already in the job interview.
"This is an important issue," says Erickson.
"In Sweden we train people for job interviews, so what happens more than once is that people are so focused on their performance that they miss what's happening on the other side of the table."
Turn a crisis into an opportunity
The conversation with Erickson takes place during the war.
He refuses to enter politics directly, but he is willing to talk about organizations in crisis - whether they occur as a result of national conflicts, or economic fluctuations or wars.
I wonder if workplaces can take advantage of a crisis and turn it into an opportunity.
"It depends on the organization's leadership," he emphasizes.
"Crises usually bring people together, consolidate people, but the leadership needs to support this, cooperate with the solidarity of the employees and create more communication. The leaders of the organization need to look at the common elements among the employees and nurture them.
"The problem, on the other hand, is that most managers don't really know how to deal with a crisis, especially if they haven't experienced one in the past. I've met tens of thousands of leaders and managers during my life, but unfortunately - only 10% of them are really strong and inspiring leaders. It's quite amazing In my eyes, and sad. Those inspiring leaders have been through a lot in their lives, that's why they are so good at what they do."
And what about the other managers?
"70% are somewhere in the average, and 20% are so bad and toxic that it is better to get rid of them, preferably one hour before. They are apparently dangerous to the organization and divide the teams. They can be psychopaths, inexperienced or simply not very intelligent people."
"I give workshops all over the world - and you won't believe how many times I've come across employees who complain that they just don't understand what is wanted of them. This is probably why we see companies that are characterized by inefficiency. It's so common, and so stupid."
I stand by what you said before: most managers don't know how to deal with a crisis, but workplaces are in crisis quite often.
"You're right. It's quite worrying to think about it. If you survive the crisis, you might get stronger - but only if the crisis is handled well. This is true for national, organizational and personal crises. If you have a good manager, a good leader, he will say it's okay to be weak for a moment, and will even ask if he can do something for you.Other managers will not want to hear about personal problems, and will want you to focus on your work.
"But many managers simply don't have a plan. In the early 1990s, in my first managerial role, the banking crisis occurred in Sweden. Interest rates were in the hundreds of percent, and as a young manager in the field - I had no idea what to do. Our clients were angry, and rightly so. I was 24 years old , I have never seen a recession in my life, and when the market was so volatile I didn't even have time to read newspapers to keep up with what was happening, because I had just become a young father. The organization had no tools to give me to cope better, so it turned out that I just messed up. I needed more experience, and that's what Which I still recommend today: in order for managers to deal better with crises, send them to training camps, to workshops. Let them practice leadership in the 'laboratory', and then apply it in the field."
Crises also make our colors, our personality traits, more intense. How do you cope?
"The key lies in understanding that people do not react in the same way. It sounds basic, but people tend to forget it when angry. A person who is characterized as red - will show his anger in a very direct way when stressed. He will shout and deal with the people around him because he is stressed. When you understand this - You can deal with him better, make him talk, share what he is going through - and thus move forward and get out of the crisis.
"The greens, on the other hand, will be characterized by passivity and fear, and will rarely speak. The blues will show pressure by asking questions, and will try to understand everything in detail. If they have more questions than answers, their frustration will increase. Once they know these details, the coping will improve.
"In the end, everyone must lead the manager under him, so that he can lead more and more people under him. The organizational water flows downward. Sometimes it's inspiring to see a CEO of a large company standing up and saying 'we can do it';
But then you sit down at your desk and wonder - what now?
A connection is required between the organization's vision and the way it is implemented."
"In a study conducted by the World Health Organization a few years ago, it was found that only 15% of people are characterized by leadership qualities, while the absolute majority are followers, led. Today, people lack leadership, they have no one to depend on"
The Parable of the Thambo Tribe
One cannot help but wonder with Erikson how great leaders cope in times of crisis.
But he surprises me, and says that he would not have set his sights on trivial leaders such as Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates.
"These people may be entrepreneurs, visionary thinkers - but not necessarily leaders that I would learn from. In my eyes, they are not that good leaders. Steve Jobs, for example, according to various publications, was known as a person who was unpleasant to be around some of the time.
"I mean, when you examine their interactions on an interpersonal level, things become more complex. There are very few leaders who would say about them - this is a good person. Nelson Mandela is a rather unusual example of a leader who had a consensus towards him. People from all over the world accepted him and believed that he was a leader and a good person. I think we respect him even more because of his life story. After 27 years in prison, he could easily have become resentful and hateful - but something in him remained calm."
"In the industrialized age, self-leadership is quite popular. The question is whether you can raise the level of adrenaline when you need it most, during a crisis. When a person knows how to lead himself, he will be in a better position to lead others"
What do you think his secret was?
"Many years ago he was interviewed by a South African journalist, who asked him exactly this - what is your secret, why do people respect you? Mandela explained that he learned this from his father, who was the head of his home village, and for years was an adviser to the leaders of the Thambo tribe. He told When his father sat with the people of the village - he always used to listen to everyone before speaking. He understood what everyone was thinking, and only then could he come to a better decision. This is a good example of leadership. Besides, I think a good leader is someone who is chosen by a team that respects him , who follows him because of his ambitious plan."
Mandala.
"He learned from his father to listen to all the people of the village", photo: AFP
Do you see progress in the way managers and leaders operate over the years, or is it the destiny of the human race to produce interpersonal problems that will always be our lot?
"That's a great question. I wish I could say we're in a constant state of progress, but that's not exactly the case. Today, in the industrialized world, self-leadership is quite popular - that is, how much you can lead yourself. Do you understand your own internal processes, do you Understanding the way you think and feel, the way you're wired, your weak points? When you understand all of these, and that's no easy task, you can get your own dopamine 'kick', get your adrenaline levels up when you need it most, on time crisis. When a person knows how to lead himself, he will be in a better position to lead others."
You said that self-leadership is popular right now. Are you implying that it has to do with a lack of quality external leadership?
"I think it is exactly so. In an international study conducted by the World Health Organization about 20 years ago, it was found that only 15% of people are characterized by leadership qualities, while the absolute majority are followers, driven. People lack real leadership, they have no one to depend on, so they have to to lead and lead themselves."
In conclusion, I have to ask - what are the most important things you have learned about the human race over the years?
"I learned one particularly important thing about the human race: when my first book began to be sold worldwide, it was translated into 60 languages, and I received many responses from all over the world, literally on a daily basis. I received messages and phone calls from Israel, Canada, New Zealand, India, the United Arab Emirates , Great Britain, Poland, USA, Sweden.
People have told me the same thing over and over again: that they recognize themselves and those close to them really well by describing human behavior according to the colors in the book.
And it gave me a feeling of peace in my body, because in the end people are very similar and can be characterized.
That's why I get so angry when I see division and schism in different places.
I call on people - focus on similarity, on goodness, and not on differences that create division.
"When spouses sit together for a meal, and suddenly an argument breaks out that darkens the atmosphere, tension and hostility arise. Then people don't know how to bridge the gaps and reach the equal valley. You wouldn't believe how often I'm asked: 'What should I do if I don't understand my partner?'
or 'Why don't I understand him?'
The truth is that the solution is quite simple: you just have to ask the other side what he means. It's not always easy to ask, and it's not always easy to talk about things - but the question itself is a simple thing. There will always be differences between people, so we need more understanding and less conflict That's why I do what I do."
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