Marianna Spring (London, 28 years old) was convinced that, after the waves of mud and misinformation that flooded the US election campaign that ended with Donald Trump in the White House, there had to be something much more complex than a mountain of Russian bots doing evils
Thus, as an editor who had just arrived at the BBC's
Newsnight
program , a few months before the 2019 British elections, Springs dove into Facebook to explain how some groups worked that, many made up of basically normal and ordinary people, share that type of of messages, see what was organized and random.
When she delivered the report, her bosses asked her to do more things of that type.
And then she asked him again for more.
And then more.
Until, three years ago, she became the BBC's first correspondent specializing in disinformation and social media.
She is also part of
Verify
, the team dedicated to the prestigious British public broadcaster to verify news of dubious origin and explain to the public how they have done it.
She has just published her first book,
A
mong the
Trolls: My Journey Through Conspiracyland, published by Atlantic Books.
What is your job?
It's about seeing how people behave and how society works, so I focus on that and the consequences that [misinformation and social media] have in the real world.
There are many people out there who have been harmed by social networks and who feel that no one is paying attention to them, that political leaders do not understand them, that the police do not help them.
And, since I am the only reporter specialized in these topics, many of them contact me.
This is a very complex matter, because behind
fake news
there are problematic individuals, lovers of conspiracies, unrepentant haters, but there is also an entire industry, very profitable, that pursues all kinds of interests.
It is important to ask what the motives are of those who spread misinformation.
And I like to separate them into two categories: the “true believers” and the “non-believers.”
The first are the ones who really swallow these things and can do harm, but in reality they are also, in a way, victims.
We must hold them accountable, but also try to understand why they do it.
Then there are those who benefit by making money, gaining power.
And these seconds feed the true believers and also feed on them?
Exact.
And that's what makes everything so complicated.
Now, for example, there are all these conspiracy theory movements, very powerful in many countries and often connected to each other.
They are the most extreme part of this world and, although they are a minority, they are very committed.
And it can be very easy, for someone who wants to cause problems, to exploit them and encourage them, because they are perfectly capable of sowing division, confrontations and even riots.
Marianna Spring.Manuel Vázquez
Is
artificial intelligence
going to make your job even more difficult?
Absolutely.
For a few months now, I have been doing a new podcast program called Why Do You Hate Me?
And in one of the chapters I have discussed a fake audio that went very viral in the United Kingdom.
In it someone posed as the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and falsely suggested that he was trying to move the Armistice Day celebrations [around November 11, commemorating the end of World War I] so that the protests pro-Palestinians had priority.
The hoax spread very quickly among certain groups, particularly those who are against immigration, who do not like the mayor.
And it was really convincing, especially because it was posing as a secretly recorded conversation.
And it's the first example of AI I've encountered that has had such a clear real-world consequence;
There were protests and a lot of division.
And one person was hurt: Sadiq Khan obviously received enormous amounts of insults online.
And the worst thing is that you don't even need the AI;
There are very simple tactics such as memes, conspiracy theories, online messages that are equally effective in spreading misinformation, and with which we have not yet managed to finish dealing.
Does the book give tools to swim among trolls without drowning?
Completely.
Each chapter is divided into different topics: shock troops, true believers, non-believers... And each of them contains its own lessons about misinformation and how we can try to detect and deal with it.
The first thing I point out is that we now live in our own social media worlds, tailored to us, offering us the content we want and playing on our own prejudices, fears and interests.
And the more aware we are of this, the better we can protect ourselves.
Because misinformation tends to go viral because we want to believe it, or because we think it could be true, because it plays with what we previously thought about things.
We all like to think that we are not vulnerable, that we would never believe this or that lie, but in reality it is very easy to do so.
We should eliminate the shame and stigma of believing lies.
The best thing you can do is be aware of what they are recommending to you, think about your algorithms and the way they are sending you content.
And if you share something misleading, take it back and be sure to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong, because otherwise it's much worse.
Have you ever been hurt online?
A troll?
Yeah.
In the book I talk a little about it, about the
trolling
that I have suffered.
And how I see myself as a case study, because I receive large amounts of abuse.
And how do you deal with it?
To start with, I think it's useful to do something about it.
For example, writing about it and researching it.
It's largely about exposing how it works and understanding the misogynistic hate I get.
I'm fortunate that I don't receive racist or homophobic hate or other forms of abuse, but by understanding it, I believe I can better help everyone.
Also, this way I feel like I'm not just standing idly by.
I am one of the BBC journalists who receives the most abuse online, but the level of abuse in real life has also been increasing.
There was a man who lived in a tent opposite the BBC headquarters and he verbally harassed me on several occasions.
They later found a knife in his store.
They transferred him to another place.
There are those who tell me: turn off the phone, forget about it.
But I can't, my job is to report on social media;
It would be like telling a political reporter to leave Parliament.
I guess you've learned to live with it, but there will always be someone who manages to touch your heartstrings at some point, right?
Well, on the Internet you learn to compartmentalize.
One person I interviewed for the podcast explained that it's a bit like an out-of-body experience: people talk about you, but they don't know you, so they don't really talk about you.
That way I think I can deal with those situations in a dispassionate way.
What I find most difficult is having to worry about my physical safety.
I'm not a fearful person and I don't want these people to feel like they win.
But I think I have to be aware of my safety in a way I never have before: I think about how I'm going to get home, who might be outside the building, you're very alert and you learn to live with it.
At the BBC we have security teams, but we also have to be very careful when sharing information.
I don't want people to know where I live.
In my book I talk about my mother and my father, but I do not share their names or those of any of my friends, family or anyone close to me.
If he did, they would become easy prey.
What impact would you like the book to have?
I would like it to mark a moment in time, because I think this world of social media will continue to evolve.
I think in 10 years people will look back and wonder how could we let this do so much harm?
I am not an activist, but a journalist, but everyone I speak to, both those harmed and others involved, is very surprised by how slow it has been to reach solutions and demand accountability.
Many of the people in the book are turning to the courts, because it's the only way they think they can stop this kind of thing.
The thing is that it is expensive and complicated and not everyone can afford it.
In his book he tells first-hand stories of trolling and being trolled.
Can he share some of the ones that surprised him the most?
Probably the disaster troll stories.
The idea that someone could take it out on people who have been through the worst thing that can happen [an attack, an accident], telling them that it wasn't real, that it was a setup, particularly those who have been left with lifelong injuries... Although, if I think about it, the most surprising, or most worrying, are all those that involve people who really did not intend to harm anyone.
Last year a woman called
Nicola Bulley
disappeared .
She fell into the river.
And the investigation ended up determining that she died from accidental drowning.
But at first there were no answers, so all kinds of speculation and conspiracy theories began to circulate.
I tracked down some of the people who had spread extreme misinformation on the topic and never thought they could cause harm.
They were nice people who could be your neighbor or your friend, who transformed themselves on social networks, often hidden behind anonymity.
And that worried me, because in some way we all find it calming to think of extremists doing terrible things, but the truth is that we are all susceptible to doing evil online, on social networks, acting without thinking about the consequences that this may have.
Is there a troll inside all of us?
Yes, I think so.
Although we like to think otherwise.
In the book I ask myself: why am I not a troll?
Why am I not a conspiracy theorist?
I think part of it is due to circumstances.
I mean, I've been very fortunate in my life, I've benefited from the system and that's why I trust it more.
I haven't had any experiences that have shaken my trust in institutions... I guess if the world has been kinder to us, maybe our troll can be kept at bay more easily.
But it's not always like this.
Typically, trolls, proponents of conspiracy theories, feel frustrated, aimless, outside the community.
So I think the best way to avoid it is precisely to try to remedy all those shortcomings and find a way to fill your life.
Actually, I think the best way to keep our trolls at bay is to basically be happy.
But that is not only our responsibility, it also depends on the decisions of politicians, social media companies...
Marianna Spring, at BBC headquarters.
Manuel Vazquez
Is there something in the essence of social networks that triggers violent behavior?
In reality, the best thing about social media is also the worst: it connects us as people like nothing has ever done before.
But, in addition, they are made based on algorithms that work with extreme reactions;
all nuance and complexity disappears, as we are bombarded with content that angers us, makes us happy, annoys us or scares us.
They play with that part of our nature.
I also think it's very dehumanizing: it's like what's in front of you isn't a person, so you say different things and behave differently.
And that has distorted social norms to some extent.
What do we consider acceptable?
If millions of people see something and like it, we suddenly think that behavior is okay.
So, are the big social media companies in any way responsible for all these things that are happening?
Yes, although they always say that they simply reflect the world, so they cannot be blamed for the problems that exist.
But they are the problem, because these algorithms recommend content to you all the time.
Maybe 10 years ago, when recommendations weren't so good, you actually searched for things yourself when you went to a search engine like Google.
But right now they largely shape our view of the world.
I dedicate a good part of my work to trying to hold them accountable, but it is very difficult.
Last year, not a single social media boss gave me an interview.
They don't want to answer questions, for whatever reason.
So they send me statements explaining that they are doing this or that, while what you are bringing to light reveals that they are not actually doing it.
So you include it in your information and that's it.
It's a kind of dance.
I think we should treat these companies like governments, because many times they are more powerful than them, but they are not accountable, there is no transparency.
I think in some ways we should see technology and social media reporters almost as political reporters.
It is true that today no one is free from
fake news
.
They end up appearing in the WhatsApp chats of friends, co-workers, family... And you continually have to decide whether to let it pass or intervene, and either of the two options is problematic.
What do you recommend?
It's very difficult, because a lot of the misinformation comes from people you know, people you trust.
And that is why it is a very effective vector to spread it.
And when faced with these messages, you are effectively faced with a dilemma: either you don't say anything because it will probably end up in an argument, or you argue, which isn't very useful either.
The best advice that psychologists and people who have been through this have given me is that, if you know someone who believes in conspiracy theories, don't abandon them, don't push them away, try to understand where they are coming from.
He tries to separate his legitimate concern from the conspiracy.
Ask them questions.
For example: where have you seen this? How do you know that this person has done that?
It is never an easy process and takes a lot of time.
But I think that arguing is never good, because then they reaffirm themselves.
However, it can work to say something like: I'm not sure this is true, look at this information I found.
You also have to try to empathize, to not make them feel stupid;
To say, for example, I completely understand why you may have thought that, because I did it too, but in reality I have realized this and that.
There is a lot of talk about the need to protect adolescents and young people from the misinformation and hatred that spreads on social networks, but aren't the elderly often the most vulnerable group?
I think so.
People often think that young people are the most affected because they are the ones who use social networks the most.
And, to a certain extent, it is true that it affects them quite a bit because they are hyperexposed.
But it's true that older people, who have less experience using social media, often take things literally, even more than younger people.
I think the best way to deal with it is to talk offline, in the real world.
To tell them: “Look, you can do your own research and make your own decision, but use all the right tools.
Don't jump to conclusions.
“Don't be fooled by the kind of people who want to exploit you on the internet.”
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