Former Federal Finance Minister Theo Waigel still hasn't had enough. Even in old age, he still gets involved in current political events.
Munich – Theo Waigel is not tired at all. He recently flew to Shanghai to hold talks on behalf of the World Bank. “If you can still manage something like that at my age, you can thank God,” says Waigel, who celebrates his 85th birthday on Monday. We met the former CSU boss and Federal Finance Minister in his Munich law firm for an interview.
Mr. Waigel, you will be 85 years old on Monday. How are you doing?
Age appropriate. My mind and my mind are functioning. I enjoy life. And I'll tell you honestly: We're living in the best of times, I wouldn't want to swap places with any previous time. The elderly, to whom I belong, have never had as much participation in public and cultural life as they do today. I am grateful to fate.
We occasionally see you at keynote speeches and you also show up at your law firm. You obviously don't share the new longing of many Germans for a life with as little work as possible...
No. This longing will not come true either. We will have to work more and longer, demographics force us to do so. I'm now turning 85. My parents, who both had to work hard physically, turned 75 and were really exhausted at that age. We are getting older than our parents, but there are no additional years of contributions that would finance our social systems.
So working longer hours is inevitable?
There are only three options. Either we continue to increase the contributions of the younger generation, but at some point this will reach its limits. We cannot constantly expect young people to do more. They should have the same chance we had. Second option: reduce pensions, pensions and social benefits. That almost doesn't work either. So the only option is to work longer. And of course we also need qualified immigration. I think calls for four-day weeks or 35 hour working hours are completely wrong.
Waigel about Müntefering: “He was right”
Why don't we hear such truths from active politicians anymore?
I complain about that. Franz Müntefering (the former SPD leader and Federal Labor Minister, editor) is not my party colleague and I don't know whether he likes me particularly. But I mention him in every speech because he clearly said back then that we had to extend working lives. He was right. But almost no one except him dared to say that, and it's no different now. It generally annoys me not to tell people what victims we will face. You have to give them pure wine, then they will be ready to sacrifice.
Would you have liked a blood-sweat-and-tears speech from the Chancellor instead of the announcement: We can do this without any restrictions?
Yes. His turning point speech wasn't bad, but he should have said: We're all going to have to make sacrifices. During reunification we had savings of 60 billion marks per year, which required many unpopular decisions. I canceled the Berlin funding and abolished the bad weather allowance. Believe me, that didn't make me any friends. But it had to be done.
The traffic light prefers to take on debt today.
This doesn't work out well in the long term, simply because of the implicit national debt. Every year there is a study that questions whether our finances are sustainable. The experts take into account everything that has already been decided in terms of social costs, pensions, pensions, care and so on. In the normal budget, our national debt is around 60 percent of gross domestic product, which is not bad. But if I add the hidden national debt, we are over 250 percent. You have to imagine this.
Worse than Greece – Waigel reckons with traffic light financial policy
Is that better or worse than Greece?
Worse. And now I'll tell you something else. I was one of the few in my party who thought financial aid for Greece was right. Today we have to say: It was completely right not to throw the Greeks out of the euro. Athens is paying back all of its debts and the federal budget has not yet been burdened with a cent. The other countries, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Cyprus, are also paying everything back and are now in a better position than Germany in terms of implicit national debt.
Do you think Putin would be standing on the southeastern flank of Europe today if Greece had had to leave the euro back then?
That would have plunged Europe into catastrophic chaos. I don't know whether the euro would have withstood that. Greece would have sunk and Putin would have had an easy time of it, not only in Greece but also in the other affected countries.
You are one of the fathers of German unity...
Be careful, there were mothers there too.
Sorry, of course. And at the same time you are also a father of the euro. Which honorary title is more important to you?
Oh God, father of the euro. My youngest son once asked me if that was true, and I replied: Some people say so. To which he said: But I don't want to be the brother of the Euro. Seriously, both are correct. Unity was a stroke of history, almost a miracle, and only possible during the two years when Gorbachev ruled Moscow. There is something else to add to unity and the euro: At that time there were 400,000 Soviet soldiers in Germany, 8,000 tanks, 180 missile systems, around 1,000 airplanes and helicopters. We were able to bring all of this back to Russia. Imagine the danger we would be in if Putin still had such an army in East Germany today.
Waigel on Putin: “He wanted hegemony”
Your opinion about Putin?
He only said all of his kind words at the end of the 1990s, his celebrated sentences in the Bundestag, because he hoped to be able to take a dominant position in Europe using diplomatic means and Russia's energy potential. And when he realized that he was not succeeding in transforming his economy, but that he was succeeding in all the countries around him, his mind changed. Now he resorts to the last resort he has, military.
Back then he wanted to become the hegemon by embracing him?
That's the way it is. He wanted hegemony. He didn't succeed. And when he realized that Ukraine wanted to follow the European path, all his fuses blew. It would be the Federal Chancellor's job to tell the people: The time when we were just the lucky winners of globalization no longer exists. We have to strengthen our defense.
Turning point in Europe: Do we need conscription back?
This no longer works in the old form. I would advocate compulsory service. Those willing can join the Bundeswehr, the others must do their service to society.
Does the debt brake have to come down in order to have more money for defense?
No. Whether they were formulated correctly ten years ago and whether it is absolutely right to write such premises into the Basic Law is another matter. But I strongly advise against changing it now. That would be a wrong signal, especially since the debt brake corresponds to what we formulated in the European Stability Pact. At that time it was said that we definitely had to get below three percent of debt, be “close to balance” in the medium term and achieve a surplus in the long term. Why surplus? Because we already knew back then that we needed the money to stabilize the social systems.
Does Söder accept Merz's candidacy for chancellor?
CDU leader Merz wants to become a candidate for chancellor, CDU veteran Bernhard Vogel recently expressed reservations. How do you see that?
The time after Merkel was not easy for the CDU and not for Mr. Merz either. He ran unsuccessfully for party leadership twice. Having the courage to compete a third time is predestined. His actions in the Bundestag are also predestined. The chancellor question depends on him. If he wants that, no one can take it away from him.
And Markus Söder?
I'm quite sure he sees that.
He won't like to hear that...
My opinion on this question is well known. A small party like the CSU finds it very difficult to dominate a larger one. That's why all Bavarian politicians with great ambitions have sought a detour. Ludwig Erhard, God knows a Bavarian, took the detour via Baden-Württemberg as a CDU politician. The Federal President of Lower Bavaria, Roman Herzog, was proud of his homeland. Nevertheless, he became state secretary in Rhineland-Palatinate, then minister in Baden-Württemberg. A Bavarian Chancellor would be possible if the CSU integrated into the CDU. I really don't recommend this. But then you have to limit your ambitions.
Freedom before peace – Merz in the tradition of Franz Josef Strauss?
Peace and freedom is a household word. Merz reverses the order and speaks of freedom and peace because of the threat from Russia.
That was also the priority for Franz Josef Strauss. He always called freedom before peace. Peace can also be an imposed peace, a repressed peace. Freedom is the absolute priority. And real freedom inevitably leads to peace. In this respect, I agree with Merz absolutely.
Many prefer to use Willy Brandt's Ostpolitik as a reference point.
I wouldn't rate it as negatively today as I did back then. But there cannot be peace at any price. It was wrong that too little attention was paid to the freedom fighters in Poland, Hungary and elsewhere and that peace was more important than contact with Solidarity.
Are you able to enjoy your beautiful Allgäu home with your wife?
I have two homes. The one in Seeg and my central Swabian one in Oberrohr, where my farm is and the old trees, some of which my grandfather planted, are in bloom. There is also my tree of life, an old plum tree, maybe 120 years old. As a boy, I climbed on it and picked up the plums so that I could have something to eat while I was working in the fields. The tree is supported, just as many old ones are supported, and consists almost entirely of bark. But it's blooming wonderfully again this year. I no longer have to be in the office every day. I can enjoy.
The interview was conducted by Georg Anastasiadis and Marcus Mäckler.