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Equality expert Barbara Lutz
Photo: Florian Generotzky
SPIEGEL:
Ms. Lutz, this is it
Pandemic a setback for professional equality for women because they also have to take care of children and the household in the home office - or a step forward because many men are now taking on more family work?
Barbara Lutz
: Both.
In places where the family work was previously done predominantly by women, the imbalance has certainly increased.
In families in which there was a largely even division of labor, this also worked during the pandemic.
Young fathers in particular have made it clear that they want to be more involved at home.
Rather, they had problems in their companies to ensure that they cannot sit at their desks until eight or nine in the evening, but instead need time for the family in between.
Men still have to declare themselves for this, with women it is assumed and accepted that they take care of children and the household.
SPIEGEL:
Then the pandemic was also a test of how seriously companies really mean equality and diversity?
About the person: Barbara Lutz
Barbara Lutz has worked as a top manager in international corporations such as the advertising agency Publicis or Commerzbank and was a consultant and appraiser for the Federal Ministry of Family Affairs.
In 2012 she founded the Frauen-Karriere-Index (FKI), which aims to make the efforts of companies in matters of diversity measurable and comparable.
Lutz:
Yes.
We have been preaching for many years that what helps women also benefits men.
Take the example of part-time: For eight years now, we have been asking companies in companies who uses part-time: are they only women or also men?
And who will be promoted from part-time?
The degree of maturity of the companies on this issue was decisive for how much flexibility they allowed their employees in the pandemic.
The good thing about the crisis is that we are now intensifying this debate, it will not go away.
SPIEGEL:
And that is also understood by company bosses who previously considered diversity to be newfangled bells and whistles?
Lutz:
We work with a company that only employs around ten percent women.
The Corona crisis team was made up of equal numbers of men and women.
As a result, many issues were debated differently.
SPIEGEL:
Do you have an example?
Lutz:
The lunch break in the home office.
The crisis team has decided that there must be a set lunch time for the family.
In the home office, people mistakenly pretend that nobody has to have lunch anymore, they simply plan completely.
Companies will have to deal more and more with such questions in the future.
Because after this crisis, not everyone will simply return to the office.
The idea that you bring the sheep back into the gate will not work.
The employees will no longer allow themselves to be deprived of the flexibility and personal responsibility that the home office makes possible despite all the fatigue.
More women - less crisis
SPIEGEL:
However, some executives see it differently.
Lutz:
Of course there will be one or the other manager who says I want to see everyone here again so I can walk into any office and drop my work orders.
But that will die out.
SPIEGEL:
What makes you so sure about that?
In a survey by the Institut der Deutschen Wirtschaft (IW) of 1200 companies, two thirds said that they did not intend to allow their employees to work more from home after the pandemic than before.
Lutz:
I think the employees will take care of that.
They will go where they can find this flexibility.
This is an opportunity for companies that offer such a work environment.
The home office is currently a synonym for the pandemic, but actually an expression of agile work and the high level of trust that companies place in their employees.
Such a culture attracts and motivates employees.
SPIEGEL:
Have companies that value diversity and a modern work culture got through the corona crisis better than others?
Lutz:
Sectors that are hard hit are, of course, hard hit industries, such as the aviation industry.
But there are certainly indicators that suggest that companies with a modern understanding of management are more likely to have come through the crisis better.
In one of our last surveys in 2019, i.e. before the pandemic, we found that 67 percent of the board members in the companies we work with regularly worked from home - men and women.
Those who knew how to lead digitally and what to look out for were significantly further down the experience curve than others.
Digital communication tools such as teams did not have to be introduced first.
The transparency was high and access to the necessary data was possible for everyone.
SPIEGEL:
But what does digitalization have to do with diversity?
Lutz:
Both are united by the will to change, the willingness to break up encrusted structures.
Those who lead hierarchically attach great importance to guarding information and data and make sure that nothing leaves the team or could be of use to others.
But when it suddenly comes down to working remotely and still innovatively, it is absolutely counterproductive and does not work.
SPIEGEL:
But what does that have to do with women?
They can also think hierarchically.
Diverse = more digital
Lutz:
Absolutely.
But companies in which women are not simply bought in for the top, but are supposed to get to the very top internally, have to do certain things to promote the careers of women.
These are always measures that fundamentally support change and change, for example transparency.
Women fail where processes in the company are not transparent.
Or the flexibility to work independently from anywhere.
Neither of these works without digitization.
SPIEGEL:
Among the companies surveyed by the IW, it was mainly small and medium-sized companies that wanted to return to the old culture of presence after the crisis.
Didn't they hear the shot?
Lutz:
There are extremely innovative medium-sized companies, but of course many are organized in a much more patriarchal and hierarchical manner.
This crisis offers a huge opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises, just not everyone has understood that yet.
Many family businesses are located in regions that nobody likes to move to.
Everyone complains that they are not getting any skilled workers.
If you offer them to work from home on a regular basis, they get a completely new approach to potential employees.
SPIEGEL:
So does the crisis separate wheat from the chaff?
Is this pandemic a stepping stone for those who have been well prepared?
Lutz:
Yes, we have a Dax company from the manufacturing industry that has already worked remotely, but was unsure for a long time how well working from home really worked.
They have now seen that it works and are completely changing their corporate structures: teams are being reassembled internationally, and local governors are no longer needed.
The head of business in France can now be based in Africa; the experts come from all sorts of countries.
This fundamentally changes the idea of how companies have to function and brings together the greatest possible expertise.
That's a huge leap.
SPIEGEL:
For women who have made careers in American or British companies, for example, German corporations have so far been often considered unattractive.
Will that change now?
Lutz:
It's even more absurd.
Even international companies based in Germany are more successful than German companies when it comes to women in management positions because they have long been living a more open culture.
In doing so, they draw from exactly the same brain pool.
The difference is that women can assert themselves there because the framework conditions are right.
When German company bosses tell me that we are looking for women, but none of them want them, I always ask back: Do the women perhaps not want them with you?
Many make an effort and then get to hear from candidates: No, I don't want to work in culture.
The problem is likely to get worse in the coming years.
For the generation of younger women and men, maximum transparency is part of everyday life, they are social media and Google socialized.
They can't be fobbed off with slogans like "I can't tell you, this is not your salary class".
That won't work anymore.
SPIEGEL:
Will the federal government's quota for women on the executive boards of listed companies help to catch up?
Lutz:
At least it helps.
We have learned in recent years that a few women on the board of directors cannot heal the world on their own.
We have to anchor many, many more women in the structures.
The companies will notice that it doesn't work to simply buy one or two women on the board and hope that they don't run away again.
They will have to change their culture so that women can make and stay careers.
And as I said, many men find such changes pleasant too.
They don't always want to belong to the boys club or have to drum loudly to be heard.
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