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Foreign Minister Heiko Maas (SPD): "In a democracy, more important than bright winners are good losers"
Photo:
Janine Schmitz / photothek / imago images
SPIEGEL:
Mr. Maas, the Democrat Joe Biden won the US presidential election after long and exciting days of counting.
Are you relieved?
Maas:
It's good that we finally have clear figures.
We look forward to working with the next United States government.
We will only solve many international challenges together.
We want to invest in this cooperation for a new transatlantic beginning, a New Deal.
SPIEGEL:
Incumbent Donald Trump continues to see himself as the winner and wants to go to the Supreme Court.
Are you worried that he might succeed with this?
Maas:
According to the OSCE, so far we have no reasonable suspicion that Trump can provide solid evidence for his claims.
But: We have to assume that the hangover due to Trump's lawsuits in court will last a while.
SPIEGEL:
Did this election change your view of the USA?
Maas:
No.
The scenario has been announced in the past few months.
Recounting votes and a legal review isn't the problem either.
However, it is important that the decisions are accepted in the end.
I'm sure American democracy is stronger than a bad loser.
SPIEGEL:
Does Trump still have to learn the word defeat?
Maas:
Everyone can judge for themselves how Trump is currently acting.
It is true that Trump has a right to appeal to the courts.
But at some point he too will have to accept a decision should he lose there.
It is a good tradition for losing candidates to admit defeat in the end - this was also the case in 2000, when the Democrat Al Gore lost to the Republican George Bush and the dispute went to the courts.
We Germans learned a lot about democratic rules from the Americans - more important than happy winners are good losers in a democracy.
SPIEGEL:
Even if Trump sees that at some point - Trumpism is not going away, the US is deeply divided.
Do you trust Joe Biden to reconcile the country?
Maas:
This election dispute further polarized the USA.
But Joe Biden has already made it very clear that it is high time to bridge the gap and make politics for all people - regardless of whether they voted for him or not.
Right-wing populism and social division are increasing in many countries.
This also fuels international conflicts.
Getting to the roots of these developments is one of the greatest tasks of the future for Americans and Europeans.
It will be easier if we tackle it together with the USA, if we listen to each other better and learn from each other again.
Just like friends and partners do.
SPIEGEL:
A technical question: When does the federal government actually congratulate the election winner, before the court decisions or only afterwards?
Maas:
Regardless of how the procedures are in the USA, from my point of view it is the right time for a very official congratulations when things are definitely certain.
In this respect, we will be patient a little longer when it comes to formal diplomatic matters.
"In a democracy, good losers are more important than brilliant winners."
SPIEGEL:
German-American and European-American relations have been subjected to a permanent stress test since 2016.
If you had one wish, what should Biden undo - Trump's exit from the climate agreement, from the Iran nuclear deal or from the World Health Organization?
Maas:
All three.
Uncoordinated going it alone should come to an end.
Joe Biden sees multilateral cooperation as America's strength.
We will only be able to solve the major challenges of our time - climate change, digitization, migration - together.
The corona pandemic is currently making it even more clear to us that we need more international cooperation.
For that we need the USA in the World Health Organization.
Only together can we ensure that the virus is combated effectively and that a vaccine is available everywhere in the world.
SPIEGEL:
When Trump was elected four years ago, there was hardly any contact with his camp.
How about Joe Biden?
Maas:
Of course, there was no official contact with him during the election campaign.
It shouldn't be done before the election either.
But as soon as the new administration is formed, the existing connections will be quickly reactivated in order to enter into an intensive dialogue.
SPIEGEL:
Will the US State Department play a stronger role again?
Maas:
We hope so.
International cooperation with the USA has suffered in recent years from the fact that personnel in the US administration often changed quickly.
There has been continuity in the State Department since 2018.
I was also able to work well with Mike Pompeo personally.
However, that cannot be said of Trump's security advisors.
I am confident that Biden, a very serious politician with experience in government, will know exactly how important personal trust is in international politics.
SPIEGEL:
There are issues in the United States that are not so controversial between Democrats and Republicans - such as criticism of Iran policy and the construction of the Russian-German Baltic Sea pipeline.
Do you still expect corrections?
Maas:
Dealing with China would even be another big topic.
We have to adjust to the fact that even after Trump everything will not be the same as it used to be.
It is all the more important that the way we work together improves.
Trump has made reliable consultation processes difficult.
We will approach the new administration and propose a transatlantic New Deal.
We need a new common understanding of the global rules of the game and have to play in a team again.
SPIEGEL:
One point of contention was the increase in the NATO defense budget, in particular Trump's demands were directed at Germany.
Even with a President Biden, little should change.
Maas:
I expect that too.
But we have given a commitment to gradually adjust our contribution.
We have always made it clear that this applies.
In Europe we have to adjust to the fact that we have to take on more responsibility in foreign and security policy - for example in Africa and the Middle East.
SPIEGEL:
Already under Barack Obama there was a partial withdrawal from the world stage - for example in Syria policy.
Will the USA take on a stronger global political role again under Biden?
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Foreign Minister Heiko Maas with US colleague Mike Pompeo in Washington (January 2019): "I was also able to work well with Mike Pompeo personally"
Photo: Bernd von Jutrczenka / dpa
Maas:
We will have to deal with the withdrawal of the USA as a global regulatory power.
This was not only the case in Syria, it is also happening in Afghanistan.
Nevertheless, the foreign and security policy under Biden is likely to be more active and more reliable.
SPIEGEL:
Will Trump's planned withdrawal of 12,000 US soldiers from Germany be up for grabs?
Maas:
The decision on this will ultimately be made in Washington.
We have always said that we value working with the US armed forces and that this is not just about our security, but also about the security of Europe.
SPIEGEL:
Is Trump's defeat also a respite for NATO, whose existence might have been in danger during his second term in office?
Maas:
Basically, there are many structural issues that need to be clarified at NATO.
We have set up a reflection group in NATO that will develop reform ideas for a future structure.
We need NATO as a community of security and values.
With a new American president, the style and tone of the Alliance would also change - that's my bet.
SPIEGEL:
Looking back on Trump's foreign policy, is there anything that you think will remain?
Maas:
Trump had a rather disruptive approach - and not only in foreign policy.
Still, the US played a major role in normalizing relations between Israel and the United Arab Emirates.
We have also taken a step further through the negotiations between the USA and the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Overall, however, new conflicts arose rather than resolved existing ones.
SPIEGEL:
How will US-Russian relations continue?
The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty expires next year.
Maas:
We must first see what priorities a new US administration will set.
But I have understood Biden's speeches in the past to mean that the US wants to play a more active role in the field of nuclear disarmament.
I would really appreciate that.
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