"I don't understand it," says Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, in an almost offended tone, "about me do they say such things? I always try to speak calmly and pleasantly. I know myself, my family, my friends. Am I a slave's tale? Will I do coercion? I'm just the opposite."
There are quite a few people for whom the name Smotrich is associated with extremism, messianism and other expressions outside the mainstream, but Smotrich clarifies that he is not. Maybe it's a lesser-known side of him, maybe it's the protest that shook him. His ideological spine doesn't move by a millimeter, but his heart seems to open wide to the emotion, the inclusion, the pain of the other.
One of the words that will be repeated throughout the conversation with him is "complexity." He is convinced that the coalition acted correctly on the legislative issue, and recalls that he demanded amendments to the system years ago: "It began with personal experiences as a teenager in the struggles surrounding the Oslo Accords and Gush Katif. The judicial system's mobilization of Arik Sharon's destructive machine while trampling on every standard of law, justice and equality was an injustice that needs to be corrected."
So maybe everything is motivated by revenge?
"Why? We have been exposed to failures of the system and we want to fix it. I went to law school, a bachelor's or master's degree, I founded the Regavim movement to try to improve it."
How do you sum up this week?
"We saved the army from falling apart. The greatest danger – far more than insubordination or failure to show up – was government capitulation. The army would become a collection of militias, each of which would use force, cranes and banners to exert influence. The government had to draw a bright red line.
"In 40-30 years, they will look at the eve of the vote on the grounds of reasonableness as a formative evening in which we saved the army from disintegrating. Now the army has a lot of work to do, you have to understand that you don't play with confidence. It is forbidden to use the power of the security establishment to realize an agenda."
"Moody's? Irrational"
We will return to the legislation that occupied an entire country for months – the media, the government and the public – in an interview with Smotrich, but looking ahead, what is now on the Finance Minister's desk is the economic crisis, which was reinforced by the worrying report by Moody's and the gloomy forecasts of banks and other credit rating agencies around the world, which warn of the negative consequences of the legislation.
The finance minister chooses to begin with what he and the government have done so far: "In economics there are facts, there are numbers. In the discussions we held in the ministry about the report, we talked about the fact that the numbers are excellent. We passed a responsible two-year budget, encouraging growth and infrastructure. We signed an agreement with the Histadrut.
"Gantz and Lapid have an interest in continuing the chaos," Photo: Oren Ben Hakon
"Our growth is greater than anything the world expected. Inflation has been halted for the second month in a row, we have carried out a series of measures to combat the cost of living and reforms that open the economy to competition, there is good news in the housing crisis, Intel is investing a huge investment here, seven groups are bidding in a tender for gas drilling, the stock exchange is rising, the shekel is strengthening over a period of time."
If the situation is so good, how did we get warnings and not an upgrade?
"There's panic, there's uncertainty. Economics is numbers but also sentiment. It bothers me, I don't take lightly Moody's statement that it fears the impact of uncertainty. It bothers me not because there's anything rational about it, but because panic was created because of an irresponsible campaign, and people were captivated by this campaign and are afraid."
Don't Moody's or Citibank know this?
"They know, and even say it, but no one writes about it. It doesn't sit well for the media with the campaign that seeks to harm the government. Their announcement puts on the table the good economic data, they only warn of instability."
There was a report that Moody's people claimed that Netanyahu lied to them, that he told them that the legislation would be brought by agreement, and that is not what happened.
"It's fake. I was in these talks, we presented economic policy, we presented the responsible way in which we conduct ourselves, we explained the reform and the lies that are being spread, and we said what they say all the time – that we want, try, try and make an effort to reach agreements. We never committed ourselves to advancing legislation without consent."
What about the cost of living? In the end, it bothers Israelis on a daily basis much more than reasonableness.
"There are things we've done as first aid, and there are things we're working on long-term. We gave credit points, negative income tax, Carrefour income, lowering customs duties on milk that will lower the price. We prevented the increase in the price of fuel, public transportation, electricity, which I hope will fall in the future by building another power plant.
"The key to dealing with the cost of living is dismantling monopolies. For decades there was a centralized economy here and a lack of courage on the part of politicians to enter into a confrontation with the monopolies. We do it. At the beginning of the Winter Conference, we will bring a reform according to which what is good in Europe is good for Israel, and the prices of food, medicine and electrical products will be lowered. Housing prices are also falling. I estimate that within a year the food market will open up to real competition and we will see a decline in prices."
A decision in favor of security
Back to the legal reform and the protests that reached a new peak this week, with the approval of the cancellation of the reasonableness grounds in the Knesset. Smotrich – even if he cannot understand the fears of the opponents of the revolution – is aware of them and does not take them lightly: "These are real anxieties, it's not from the language and stress, and it is impossible to ignore it. We must allay these fears. The issue is not the grounds of reasonableness. This fear is not rational but emotional.
Approved cancellation of reasonableness grounds | Knesset Channel
"There is a very organized campaign here, the most expensive campaign in the history of the State of Israel, there is a total mobilization of the media for the protest. I sat on a panel this week on Channel 12 News - they're doing a competition over who will broadcast more drama, tragedy, fear, attack. There's one fig leaf, a faculty colleague, who I don't understand how he keeps his sanity when he's in a forum like this every night.
"They know it's a false panic, they lie, they know the real situation is far from how they present it. But it is impossible to ignore the fact that a large part of the public today is in pain, fear and anxiety. We are everyone's government, and we are the ones who must allay these fears and fears. Just as we would like them to feel our feelings, that there is half a nation that for 30 years has felt trampled, trampled, underrepresented."
This side has been in power for thirty years.
"He's in power, but he's not in control. The attorney general and the court repeatedly trample on his values, violating basic rights. So are the settlers and so are the ultra-Orthodox. We now see where and where in the attitude of the police, in the scope of indictments. There is half a nation that is not represented in academia, in the media, in elite units in the army."
So what should be done?
"First of all, we have to recognize the problem, recognize that there are two painful sides to this story. The second stage is to conduct dialogue, dialogue and agreed progress. The problem is that you work with an opposition that has the opposite interest. Let's assume that we enter into real talks and bring agreement and amendments to the judicial system – this means that the coalition is stable and that it has done what it promised its voters. The opposition has an interest in toppling the government, it benefits from the chaos and instability.
"When Lapid shows understanding for non-stabilization measures, he knows that it is dangerous to the security of the State of Israel. When his friends sow fear about the economy, even though everyone knows the economy is stable, that's the problem. I'm willing to make far-reaching compromises, I'm willing to do much more than I wanted just to meet halfway, but there's a side that's not willing to get a tenth closer because it has an interest in escalating the situation."
Some of your friends say that you insisted on not giving up precisely because of the calls for not reporting to the army.
"In March, when we stopped the legislation, there was a dilemma for the prime minister: either security or the things we wanted to promote, and he decided – security. Now a dilemma of security versus security has arisen, and as I said, surrendering to these threats was the worst blow to the army.
"I, too, will not live one day in a country that does not have a strong, independent court that knows how to protect human and civil rights. I will not live in a country with an all-powerful government. The discussion is about the system of balances. I don't want a court that's all like me, I want the same diversity. Not one in which the president decides to return from abroad to discuss the petition on the grounds of reasonableness, because God forbid that Judge Mintz will not be the one to hear because he is known for the fact that exhaustion of proceedings is important to him and may reject the petition. What they're doing is from the springboard."
"I have no joy for Id"
Smotrich talks about the position of the attorney general who came out against the incapacitation law enacted by the Knesset as a Basic Law, and complains: "Do you understand the tragic significance of the attorney general who enters the iceberg with her head and goes to file a disqualification of a Basic Law? It wants to take a gun aimed at the prime minister's temple, and she can use it at any given moment and take him into incapacitation.
"Do you understand what it is like for an official to erase 2.4 million people who voted for the national camp and elected their prime minister, and then an official comes along and decides that the elected prime minister is not suitable? This can't go on."
What will you do?
"I want to believe and hope that the court will know how to draw red lines and not plunge us into a huge national crisis. I don't see a situation in the world where this is happening. This is a far-fetched, illogical and illegitimate scenario in a democratic country that I find difficult to think of. I hope common sense prevails. You have to explain that there are red lines.
"In any case, we don't escalate, we don't degrade, we don't underestimate the other side's pain and fears. Do not insult good people even if they are wrong. I tell my campmates to calm down. We did the right thing with a heavy responsibility, but I'm not celebrating victory. I have no joy for Id."
What did you think of statements like Ben-Gvir's about "the salad bar opening"?
"An unfortunate statement that has no place. Itamar understands too. I don't open a bar, I don't celebrate and I don't rejoice. I told him my opinion."
Looking back, with the rift, the protests, the damage to the economy, the White House, the tension and the rifts – the grounds of likelihood are worth all the fuss?
"The amendments to the judicial system are critical for the State of Israel to be democratic. The reason for reasonableness is the most minor thing. The truth is that it wasn't supposed to provoke anything. If we raise Handbraks, there is a second half of the people who will feel that they have surrendered and been trampled, and this is the half that won the elections and received power democratically."
Would you do it again?
"Yes. Don't forget that Forum 555 (leaders of the pilots' protest) was established back in 2020, the pilots' letters were even before the government was established. Ehud Barak has been talking about protest for three years, he has an organized plan to create chaos, a crisis, and then come like Napoleon on the white horse to prime minister. With Olmert, Boogie and Halutz it is no longer rational. They also contradict themselves - look at how Halutz spoke and commented on a promile of a promo of refusal during the expulsion from Gush Katif, and suddenly now it's perfectly fine to disband the army because your political position is the opposite.
"I don't believe that Halutz or Boogie or Olmert really think that the reason for reasonableness is the end of democracy. There is hatred of Netanyahu, ego and jealousy. This causes them to lose their heads. Unfortunately, the masses are buying this campaign of intimidation and are really afraid. In any case, we will not stop striving to turn over every stone in order to find a partner with whom the amendments can be made by agreement."
Who - Gantz or Lapid?
"They have an interest in continuing the chaos. They are also afraid of Barak, Halutz and the protesters. Maybe we need to find a group of experts to sit on this for a month or two."
And if you don't find it, go on your own?
"Yes, we will have no choice. We are committed to reforming the judicial system. For those who are afraid, I have a solution - instead of confiscating, burning and cutting the rope, come to the room to talk and we will do it together. If you continue to boycott, we will have no choice but to do it alone, and even then we will do it carefully, responsibly. Maybe we'll moderate things."
Prime Minister Netanyahu has said in recent months that the composition of the Judicial Appointments Committee will not have a majority for the coalition, but Smotrich is not worried and is convinced that the legislation will lead to the diversity he aspires to: "The result should be a court that even if those who think differently enter it, they are not thrown to the end of the line and organize a panel that will rule on the desired and predictable outcome. There are all kinds of methods on how to get to it. For a moment we never thought of taking over the court, it's neither good nor right."
Are you sure Netanyahu won't want to stop the legal reform and go for a different agenda?
"It's not just Netanyahu in the picture. There is a full alignment of the coalition leaders who are committed to the amendments and want to do them responsibly and not aggressively. I feel that Netanyahu understands that these amendments are necessary."
There was a feeling that there were two camps: Levin, Rothman and you, who wanted the legislation very much, versus Deri, Netanyahu and Dermer, who were looking for solutions.
"It wasn't the balance of power. We all believe that the repairs are right and just, everyone understands the complexity, and we all share the thinking of how to navigate correctly and reach the goal when the entire nation of Israel is safe and sound."
We saw before our eyes drama in the plenum, attempts at compromise, talks between Levin and Galant, talks with Gantz and Lapid. What was there?
"Even in the last 24 hours before the vote, we looked for a way to do something consensually. The opposition has set an illegitimate threshold condition for freezing the legislation for 15 months. Unlike a thousand thousand differences, even the Palestinians do not set threshold conditions for entering negotiations. The opposition said: Stop so we can just go into the room to see if we can even reach an agreement. This is an illegitimate condition. We agreed to freeze the legislation until December 31 in order to enter the dialogue, but no one agreed to one day beyond that.
"We looked at the possibility of amending a clause in the law that would allow the law to be applied from December, but we needed a commitment from the opposition that if we made this amendment we would not now go into the constitutional committee to delay another 27,<> reservations. They refused. There was no argument between Gallant and Levin at all, Gallant shared the position that we must not surrender and stop the legislation. We all wanted agreement and we all understood that we must not surrender."
So what will happen now - Deri will return? Will the attorney general be fired? Will Netanyahu's trial be stopped?
"This is another one of our difficulties in reaching agreements, the fact that the other side refuses to respect the fact that we have a substantive opinion of what the system of balances vis-à-vis the judicial system should look like. The other side is constantly trying to attribute malicious intentions to us. It's not there, we have a clear and coherent perception of the changes and balances that need to be corrected in the justice system."
Do you think Deri will come back now?
"My principled position is that Deri should have returned a long time ago, he was tortured and persecuted for years. The reasonableness has nothing to do with Deri's issues, but Deri's issue is part of the distortions and failures of the justice system. The fact that criminal law is linked to democracy is a distortion. They did it to Litzman, they did it to Deri, now they do it to Netanyahu – they didn't succeed in removing him from power democratically, so they try the criminal way, until Elsheikh comes and mistakenly tells the truth that 'we didn't think he would remain in office.'"
Was the grounds of reasonableness also worth the shaky relationship with the White House?
"There is a blue-and-white BDS movement that is actively working to sabotage Israel's foreign relations. I say this from knowledge, not appreciation. The White House draws information about what is happening in Israel through intermediaries – the Israeli media, Israelis who talk to the regime like Olmert and Barak, opposition members who talk to State Department officials, are interviewed in the foreign media and spread lies about what we are doing.
"We have great admiration for the United States. Practical cooperation on security and strategic issues is stronger than ever. We must do what is good and right for the State of Israel. The United States is allowed to express its opinion and criticize, and we must do what we think is right and right."
"Torah, employment and the army"
This week, the Torah Study Law made headlines, comparing part of the draft law that is expected to occupy the Knesset quite a bit in the next session. "This has been dealt with for decades, 25 years since the Supreme Court entered the story," the finance minister said. "I haven't seen to this day that anyone has succeeded in bringing about a good solution, that anyone has succeeded in recruiting the ultra-Orthodox and integrating them into the labor market. I come from a community that combines Torah and military service, and I would love for my ultra-Orthodox brothers to bear the security burden alongside great appreciation and enormous importance for Torah study.
"All the sanctions, targets, indices and everything they have tried to do so far under duress has not succeeded. You can keep walking with your head against the wall and think that what hasn't worked until now will work from today. I think it is right to allow the ultra-Orthodox to lower the age of exemption from service and thus bear the burden of the economic challenge.
The current law will perpetuate a privilege for the ultra-Orthodox. The secular youth must serve, and the ultra-Orthodox may not serve. "There are a lot of privileges for secular people that the ultra-Orthodox don't have, 95% of the beaches in Israel are open to secular people and there are almost no separate beaches, there are large budgets for culture that secular people consume, and I don't. It's not worth getting into it. I believe that the integration of Haredim into the labor market will lead to the integration of Haredim into the army. They will understand that the army is the gateway to Israeli society and recruitment rates will rise."
Don't you think that filing this law on Tuesday of this week, the morning after the reasonable cause was passed, was illogical and tactless?
"There was a glitch, someone submitted this law, we realized it wasn't good, and in that second it was off the agenda. Here's proof that democracy corrects itself and you don't need a court for that. The timing was screwed up, but I can't control it. It will be raised at the next conference, while recognizing reality and providing solutions, with great appreciation for those who serve."
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