Yaron Blum
Former POW/MIA Coordinator
He served as a senior ISA official in various field positions, as a district coordinator and department head, as well as in positions in the Israeli security apparatus abroad. He served as a member of the negotiating team for the release of Gilad Shalit.
He is currently a security consultant, director, commentator and owner of the podcast "Highly Classified" in Israel Hayom
Yaron Blum, you used to operate agents in the Shin Bet. To what extent do you feel that in your day-to-day conduct you still have the core of the same role?
"In the service, you get different tools that will allow you to work with the other side, and I think you have to make sure that these tools don't spill over into everyday life, in a way that could cause damage or manipulatively harm the other. Now, for example, I recognize in your body language something neat, meticulous. The service could have been used, but here, in our conversation, it's pointless, because we just want to have a conversation."
So theoretically, if you had to recruit a person whose body language is more rigid, orderly and meticulous, how would you act?
"You open it, go with it in directions he didn't even think to talk about. I will ask him about his wife, where he knew her, how his life is. When I take him out of his comfort zone, he'll speak freely."
What do you do in the opposite case, of a more diffuse recruitment target?
"Organizing it. And I will try to learn about him as much as possible in advance, so that I don't scatter in front of him."
Which personality style is the hardest to recruit?
"Ideologues, fanatics."
How do you break through the veil of ideology?
"First of all, affinity and interpersonal connection. When you establish an affinity and interpersonal connection in recruiting and operating agents, the chances that the agent will betray you, betray us as a country, are very small. It is also very important to be honest and truthful in front of them. To seek the commonalities, and not to hate. I have asked myself many times why veterans, certainly senior ones, lean to the center-left rather than the right. The answer is that they become realistic and understand the other side.
"I'm a bit skimping on your question, but on this issue it's important for me to say that Israeli Arabs can be a segregated or integrated population. If we don't connect them to Israeli society, there will be chaos. 90% of them want to live here in peace. And these are things that become clearer for you after many years of service in the Shin Bet. By the way, in contrast, the situation is similar for the ultra-Orthodox. If we don't integrate them, if we continue to generate hate speech, where will we go?"
We will continue to talk about the situation in the country, but I want to dwell for a moment on your service in the Shin Bet. Tell me about an operational moment that you will find hard to forget.
"In June 1984, we were operating in the Tyre governorate of Lebanon, and my deskie, Ephraim, discovered paperwork of intelligence gathering documents about me before an operation."
That is, an attempt to eliminate you. What was written there?
"There was an outward description of me: 'He has a mustache, a skinny face, drives a Mercedes or Volvo, not in a hurry. Sometimes he drives and sometimes he sits next to the driver.' And the desk wrote me on his own note: 'Yaron, be careful.' At that time, we didn't hang out with security guards. This note, discovered following a raid on a mosque, was a defining moment for me – this risk to my life, and also over the heads of my colleagues. It does something to you as a person. Other defining moments occur when you manage to recruit an agent at a destination where no one has been able to recruit yet. It is very difficult to recruit agents in Islamic fundamentalist organizations, Amal, for example, which was similar to Hezbollah."
Hezbollah operatives in training,
Does this difficulty still exist today?
"Yes, except for a dramatic change: today technology has advanced, so sometimes there is no longer a need for an agent within the target."
When Hamas identifies weakness
We are conducting this interview in a dramatic week. I want to ask you what you think about what is happening now within military units, in security agencies like the Shin Bet and the Mossad, with regard to opposition to the reform?
"The Shin Bet, as well as the IDF, are a reflection of the security organizations. At the core of these organizations are people who have been educated to follow the flag. The Shin Bet and Mossad are smaller than the IDF, so the distance between the workers and the top of the pyramid is very small. The current protest will affect the organizations themselves, new recruits. Young people will think twice before joining security organizations. They will think about whether to enlist in the IDF, let alone whether to sign permanently, whether to go to a combat unit. Employees of the Shin Bet, Mossad and IDF regulars may not protest, but they eat their hearts. Many of them want to protest. On the other hand, there are those who think that this is exactly the time to protect the organizations from within and stand up whenever necessary, for the sake of democracy."
Are you afraid of resignation, refusal?
"I don't think tomorrow we'll see a wave of resignations in the Mossad or the Shin Bet, because the security organizations see beyond the government. They see the role as a calling, a real mission to preserve democracy, to be the gatekeepers. In the army, unfortunately, I do see an internal shock that focuses mainly on volunteers."
As for the heads of organizations, do we have cause for concern?
"The current legislation could limit the independence of the heads of organizations, who must be independent, and subject only to the prime minister, and not to any political whim."
What occupies Ronen Bar now, what is on his desk?
"Terrorism. Hamas, in its view, identifies weakness and tries through Hamas in Gaza and through its foreign terrorist apparatus to carry out attacks in the West Bank. Hamas recognizes, in its view, our weakness. Hezbollah too."
Photo: Ariel Hermony/Ministry of Defense
who teases us on the border.
"They set up tents, conduct observations, photograph the chief of staff. Another challenge for the head of the Shin Bet is the state of the Palestinian Authority. The better we make sure that the PA's situation is greater, the weaker we will be Hamas. But settling hundreds of thousands more Jews in Judea and Samaria, without strengthening the Palestinian Authority, will lead to a serious deterioration in the security situation. And extremists in this government don't understand the implications. I believe that in this impossible coalition, Netanyahu is desired, and therefore it is important that the gatekeepers be independent and that they be listened to more."
"The situation in the police is difficult"
Tamir Pardo recently said in "fact" that if he were to head an enemy organization or state, he would stop dealing with us, because we are destroying ourselves ourselves. On the other hand, when you look at Hezbollah's border provocations, I wonder how it serves them. After all, days of battle, or war, will only unite us and work against them.
"In my opinion, Hezbollah does not want war, it is still deterred. When Nasrallah takes the elevator from the bunker, sticks his head out and sees the dahiya destroyed, he is still deterred. But our deterrence erodes, especially when pilots, fighters and cyber warriors announce that they will stop volunteering."
Regarding the cessation of volunteering, what did you think of Nadav Argaman's statement that if the legislation passes, the contract does not have to be fulfilled, and that we are facing a civil war?
"I connected to things. It was a courageous interview. He worries nationally, and said he understands the volunteers. To be honest, I understand them too. A 50-year-old man who volunteers for reserve duty and risks his life doesn't have to do that if he feels like he's serving a potential dictatorship."
, Photo: Gideon Markowitz
Since Argaman talked about civil war, do you think the police or Shin Bet are preparing for such a scenario?
"I don't know how to say, but I do know that these things are talked about in organizations. In this regard, it can be said that the situation in the police is difficult. It is impossible to work in a place where thousands of police officers are missing, where motivation is low and where there are constantly dilemmas related to working with their Jewish brethren. It's an illogical situation when the police operate under a minister who until a few years ago was handled by the police and security organizations."
And that affects the command, obviously.
"11 or 12 extras resigned. They didn't resign because of Kobi Shabtai, who is a brave, professional and straightforward man. We need to create a situation here in which the minister in charge does not interfere in the professional work of the police, and at the same time strengthen the police, the image, and raise wages. That's what Rudolph Giuliani did as mayor of New York City, and that's what is needed here as well.
"And we haven't even talked about crime in the Arab sector raising its head, because the heads of criminal organizations identify the police as weak. Unfortunately, the police are busy today with many tasks, the blanket is short, and the state has not bothered to strengthen manpower, technology, salaries, or unit pride. The Israel Police is unable to deal with the challenges, especially in the face of crime in the Arab sector, and I am also talking about the Negev. The Bedouin recognize our weakness as a state, are involved in rising crime, use illegal weapons and take over a vast area of illegal construction.
"Therefore, the danger at home is no less than the danger outside. And if we don't wake up, things will get worse for years to come. That is why this legislation, certainly not through dialogue, is delusional. The legislation is not what matters now; we must put it aside and deal with the fundamental problems – the rift among the people, in the Jewish and Arab sectors, the Negev, the economic situation, our international situation vis-à-vis the United States, and the Gulf states, whose investments in the country are decreasing."
"Mutual responsibility, that's the ethos"
Let's talk about your recent role in the defense establishment as coordinator of POWs and MIAs. A position you held for five years, under three prime ministers. You and your predecessors have been criticized. To what extent is it possible to objectively criticize an activity that is inherently clandestine?
"I think you can't. I took up this position because I was called to the flag, and this is an important and sensitive national mission that must be kept in the shadows, because any discourse on this issue has a price on the other side, especially around manipulation by terrorist organizations. The POW/MIA coordinator integrates the activity along many axes, and deals with a variety of affairs, including the release of civilians, some of which do not even reach the media."
How complicated do things become when it comes to a civilian who crossed the border, for example in the same case in February 2021 when you returned the civilian who crossed into Syria, and later two other civilians who crossed into Lebanon?
"An excellent question, because as far as the terrorist organizations are concerned, certainly Hamas, an IDF soldier is more important to Israel than a civilian, and this is not the case. For every such release of soldiers and civilians, in every negotiation, entire systems work around the clock. During the years I did my job, I slept and woke up with the captives and missing persons, and I experienced the pain of the families."
And you've also come under quite a bit of fire. Hurt?
"I'm not into it, but I'm a human being, and on a personal level it's certainly hurtful. In my view, it is wrong to personally attack the coordinator. A great deal of work is being invested in this issue, in all arenas, in order to return soldiers and civilians. And we still owe a debt to the missing and captives of Gaza, to the missing Sultan Ya'qub, Guy Hever, Eli Cohen, Ron Arad."
Are the systems still dealing with the return of Ron Arad and the missing Sultan Ya'qub?
"Yes, including at this moment, and these are very complex operations, similar to the return of the body of the late Zachary Baumel."
You were a partner in the return of Gilad Shalit. Have you kept in touch?
"Yes. Over the years we have met and maintained a warm personal relationship, although recently a little less. I have great admiration for his ability to endure over five years in Hamas captivity, and I appreciate the fact that he got married and built a family."
Can the Shalit deal come back today?
"In the Israeli public, the Shalit deal cannot go back. Yahya Sinwar has not yet realized that the number of terrorists released will not return. On the other hand, it must be remembered that when there is no intelligence and operational capability to return a kidnapped, captive or missing, civilian or soldier, the state must pay a price. This is our mutual responsibility, this is our ethos."
Among your many roles, you are expected to present a security podcast, "Highly Classified," here at Israel Hayom. It's a sharp transition – from the world of shadows to the spotlight.
"I understood that it is possible to influence processes in the world of security interpretation. At first the spotlight embarrassed me, but then I tried to live my life. But yes, it's a significant change."
Do you miss the anonymous life?
"I often miss anonymity, when you don't know exactly who and what you are, it's certainly very convenient. On the other hand, if you want to make an impact, that's the price, and I'm willing to pay it."
You are not your typical journalist, but a security guard who will have a conversation with securityists. What is different about such a conversation compared to a conversation between security officials and journalists?
"Unconsciously, when a person is interviewed by a journalist, he asks himself where he is going to be, embarrassed. In the podcast of two security personnel, the goal is really to speak security and not to speak yellow. In the conversations I've had so far – for example, with Tal Russo and Israel Hasson, head of the operations division and former head of the southern division of the Shin Bet – we have indeed managed to find a new and different perspective."
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