By Amanda Terkel - NBC News
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis denied Sunday that he believed former President Donald Trump's lie that he had been the real winner of the 2020 presidential election. They were his strongest comments to date on that matter.
"Whoever puts his hand on the Bible on Jan. 20 every four years is the winner," DeSantis told NBC News correspondent Dasha Burns in his first network interview since launching his presidential campaign.
DeSantis spoke after all the reasons he believed the 2020 presidential election hadn't been perfect. But pressed further, he clearly stated that Trump had lost.
[Judge asked for most recent case against Trump for protective measures]
"But respectfully, he didn't clearly answer that question," Burns said. "And if he can't give a 'yes' or a 'no' on whether he lost or not..."
"No, of course he lost," DeSantis declared, adding, "Joe Biden is the president."
Tune in to TODAY and NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt on Monday to watch the interview in English. Other segments will also air throughout the day on MSNBC and NBC News NOW. The full interview will be available in NBCNews.com.
"Ron DeSantis really should stop being Joe Biden's cheerleader," Trump spokesman Steve Cheung told NBC News.
DeSantis' comments come just days after Trump pleaded not guilty to allegations that he broke the law by trying to overturn the 2020 election.
And at a campaign event in Iowa on Friday, DeSantis also strongly dismissed theories that the election was stolen, saying these "didn't turn out to be true."
Still, DeSantis made sure to point out in Sunday's interview that he saw a number of issues with the 2020 election, including Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg's scholarships for the election, the widespread availability of mail-in ballots, state laws allowing third parties to pick up and deliver other voters' ballots and how social media downplayed a story about the son's laptop. President Joe Biden, Hunter Biden.
"I think people in the media and elsewhere want to act like this was a perfect choice... I don't think it was a good choice," DeSantis said. "But I also think Republicans didn't fight back. You have to defend yourself when that's happening."
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis in his interview with NBC News correspondent Dasha Burns, Aug. 6, 2023, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.Maddie McGarvey for NBC News
But DeSantis also criticized Trump, saying he set the stage for his own loss by signing the CARES Act, a $2.2 trillion economic stimulus bill in response to the COVID-19 crisis. Roughly $400 million of that budget went toward helping states organize elections, and many states expanded mail-in voting during the pandemic.
"But here's the issue that I think is important for Republican voters to consider: Why did we have all those mail-in votes? Because Trump handed the government to Fauci," DeSantis said, referring to Dr. Anthony Fauci, leader of the White House Coronavirus Task Force. "They accepted the closures. They signed the CARES Act, which funded mail-in ballots across the country."
Florida has long allowed anyone who wants to vote by mail to do so, even in the 2020 election.
Trump has been a vehement opponent of mail-in voting. For the 2024 election, the Republican National Committee is trying to push for a "culture shift" for Republican voters to adopt early voting, including mail-in voting, after Trump has demonized the practice.
Beyond Trump
DeSantis declined to criticize Trump for his legal troubles, insisting that "it's really not about Donald Trump" and emphasizing his opposition to a justice system that is "not fair if used as a weapon."
He also said focusing too much on Trump and his accusations is a problematic path for the Republican Party.
[Trump assures that the new accusation against him is a political persecution]
"If the election is a referendum on Joe Biden's policies and the failures we've seen and we're presenting a positive vision for the future, we'll win the presidency and have the opportunity to change the course of the country," DeSantis said.
"If, on the other hand, the election is not about January 20, 2025, but January 6, 2021, or what document he left in the bathroom at Mar-a-Lago, if it's a referendum on that, we're going to lose."
Teaching Black History in Florida
DeSantis also discussed Florida's new guidelines for teaching black history to high school students, particularly a widely criticized provision to instruct children that enslaved people developed "skills" that could be used for their "personal gain."
DeSantis has tried to distance himself a bit from educational guidelines, saying last month, "I didn't. I wasn't involved."
But he also defended the guidelines, saying they were "probably going to show some of the people," referring to enslaved people, "that they eventually took advantage, you know, of being a blacksmith to do things later in life."
Asked about the issue Sunday, DeSantis said, "That means they developed skills despite slavery, not because of slavery. It was them showing ingenuity and then using those skills once slavery ended."
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"We deal with education, not indoctrination," he added. "Those guidelines were not politicized at all. The Legislature dictated none of that. The governor's office didn't dictate any of that."
DeSantis has faced harsh criticism over the guidelines, including from four of the five black Republicans in Congress. All four who have spoken out have endorsed Trump, except for Sen. Tim Scott of South Carolina, who is running for president.
Scott, the only black Republican in the Senate, said last month: "What slavery was really about was separating families, maiming humans and even raping their wives. It was simply devastating. So I hope that every person in our country, and certainly those running for president, understands that."
Confronted with Scott's words in Sunday's interview, DeSantis responded: "Don't take that Kamala Harris against the state of Florida. Don't get carried away by those lies."
DeSantis noted that a group of black academics developed the guidelines. But as NBC News reported, most members of the task force did not support the more controversial elements that were eventually published.
'Lethal force' against migrants
One of the issues on which DeSantis has been positioning himself to Trump's right is immigration. In late June, he said he supported the use of "lethal force" against immigrants entering the United States suspected of drug trafficking.
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"You're on American soil when... you've already gone through the wall," he told NBC News at the time. "You have hostile intentions, because you're obviously trafficking drugs. Of course you can use lethal force."
DeSantis reiterated his support for that proposal on Sunday, declaring that "cartels are basically foreign terrorist organizations," so "lethal force" is justified.
[Florida Undocumented Immigrants 'Forced' into Exile by DeSantis' Immigration Law: 'We've Had to Come Out Like Rats']
Burns pressed DeSantis on how he could "distinguish the good guys from the bad guys, especially when people cross the border under cover of night."
"The same way a police officer would know," DeSantis responded. "In the same way that someone operating in Iraq would know. You know, these people in Iraq at the time, they all looked the same. You didn't know who had a bomb strapped to them. So those guys have to make judgments."
DeSantis served in Iraq and is the only military veteran to participate in the 2024 race.
Make it clear that he will support anti-abortion policies
In April, DeSantis signed a law banning abortion after six weeks gestation. Burns asked the governor, "To what extent do you think women should be punished for violating the abortion ban?"
"Not at all," he replied. "No, I don't think this is a woman's problem. I think a lot of these women, you know, are in very difficult circumstances. They don't get any support from many of the parents. And a lot of them, the number one reason women choose to have an abortion is because they don't get support and feel abandoned. Now, in Florida, we've provided support and put our money into what we believe in, but at the end of the day, you know, I wouldn't support any sanction to a woman."
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Asked if he would "veto any kind of federal bill that attempts to establish a nationwide ban," DeSantis replied, "I will be a pro-life president and I will support pro-life policies."
DeSantis also said he was not in favor of restricting contraceptives.
"No, no, no, no," he replied. "Contraception in Florida: In reality, our Department of Health provides about 100,000 people a year with access to contraceptives at no cost. And I think they should be available over-the-counter, and I think people should be able to access that."