A lot of water has passed through Israel's turbulent political system since Ayelet Shaked was marked as the prominent leader of the Israeli right. She wound our lives in a pair with former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett at the Jewish Home, and from there in various incarnations stood in the front row of government ministers over the past decade.
She was even a "lady fascism" for changes in the judicial system even before it became a protest slogan. All this until the formation of the previous government. Then, despite her own attempts to form a right-wing government, she finally stood by Bennett on the way to an adventure in the "government of change," while members of her camp sat in opposition. Today, when she is already nine months out of the political system, Shaked is still not concluding this chapter in her life and is already marking, perhaps, the way back.
We conduct the interview just before the High Holidays at Kardan Real Estate's offices in Tel Aviv, while she is sitting as Chairman of the Company's Board of Directors. She sits at the head of the table, exuding strength and determination despite everything. I open the computer and we dive, as if she never left.
They say politicians have trouble quitting, was it hard for you to see the government sworn in, and you out?
"Actually, no. I see this period, which is unclear how long it will last, as a gift. It's interesting to see things from the sidelines, and it's also a gift for my family."
Still, you are interviewed and still make sure to express yourself on issues on the agenda regularly.
"That's right. Because the subject I have dealt with most of my years of public activity is the legal issue, both as a Knesset member and later as justice minister. I think I'm the first person on the right to lay out an orderly doctrine on this issue. In a series of articles and speeches, I have put this issue of conservatism and governance on the table, so it is important for me to be heard. It also pains me at this time, because the path taken by the government is not working, and we are in a severe and severe crisis.
"When she photographed me, it was in the midst of a very difficult election campaign. Today, you see, I'm much more smiling", Photo: Avishag Shar-Yashuv, courtesy of Haaretz
"I actually see the full picture, both camps, because politically I'm in the right-wing camp, but socially I'm surrounded by people who go out to demonstrate every Saturday night because they're really afraid. So it's also important for me to explain to them that sometimes this fear is exaggerated. I encounter people who are afraid they won't be able to get money out of the country, and I tell them, 'It's nonsense, it's fake.' At the same time, I think that my camp acted arrogantly and aggressively, and this is not the way to advance things. I believe in evolution, not evolution. In processes, not revolutions in one day."
In order to introduce such a dramatic legal reform, they will tell you that maybe he should have worked like Yariv Levin, because it would not have worked nicely.
"You see that it's not working now, that they're not succeeding, and the economic, social, security price is very heavy. Foreign investment is stopping, people are not bringing money into Israel today because it looks like a country in a mess, and the fracture in the IDF is real, especially in the air force. So the right says the protest is to blame, and the protest says the government is to blame. It doesn't really matter at the moment, the responsibility lies with the government. The government must make sure that there is a strong economy here, that there will be a strong army here. Because when a country's immune system is weakened, it's more vulnerable to attacks from outside, and that's a dangerous situation that we don't need to reach."
Still, Levine is trying to do what they haven't tried before. Nor are you in your position as justice minister.
"I did it not in a full-fledged right-wing government, but in a center-right government with the Kulanu party. During my time it was impossible to make legislative changes, so I changed the system within the existing rules of the game and proved that it is possible, that it is possible to change the face of the judicial system gradually. Levin has an opportunity to appoint at least two conservative justices and two liberal justices are leaving. If he succeeds in this task, even within the existing rules, the court will become a conservative majority."
Legal Revolution 2 on the way?
The former justice minister warns the government about the proposed changes to the Judicial Selection Committee. "The proposals put forward so far in the coalition are bad for the right-wing camp. I explained this to the relevant parties: It's bad twice, because once it will cause another social, economic and military crisis, and the second time the change in question does not change the situation. They will still have to reach agreements between the camps, only instead of reaching an agreement with a few forces in the committee, they will have to reach an agreement only with the opposition. It doesn't improve the right's position on the committee, and it does great damage, so what is it for? To say you did something? It's better to leave the status quo."
What about removing members of the Bar Association from the committee and replacing them with public representatives?
"That's what I suggested from the very beginning. Four months ago, I proposed making a more minor change that could serve the right-wing camp – excluding representatives of the Bar Association and appointing two public representatives by the justice minister or another member of the coalition and opposition – this is a softer, more digestible and meaningful change."
Still, it seems that no matter which proposal is put on the table, the most radical elements of the protest will attack it.
"I say again, what is being offered today is not good, and therefore the damages are not worth the benefit that is not. In the end, my friends who go out to demonstrate are people who have never demonstrated before, and they do it because they are really afraid. These are realistic people, and I think that if they explain and the changes are measured, the resistance will subside."
Yoni Rikner
Shaked opposes all initiatives for changes in the Judicial Selection Committee. "Now, in most cases, the justice minister will be from the right. It's the demographics and the choice of Israelis on the right, or there will be members of the committee from the right, and some of the judges will also be clearly right-wingers in the coming years. In the mirror of my term, I say again: This term as well, it was possible to create a majority on the committee. Before presenting the reform, from which nothing came of it, they had to present a candidate on their behalf who could win the elections in the Bar Association, and work with them in cooperation as I did."
After everything that has been revealed that is happening in the Bureau, no one wants to restore the power of its head.
"True, but the way the reform was presented is extreme and nothing is being done."
Today, in practice, Levin cannot appoint judges in his view. That's the problem on the table.
"But they need to look 20 and 30 years ahead for the right-wing camp. The power of the right will not decrease, it will only grow, so all the changes at the moment will benefit the current coalition, but will worsen the situation for the right-wing camp in the future."
Have you spoken to Yariv Levin recently?
"Yes, we talk occasionally."
Clue?
"I keep our conversations between myself and an opponent."
Still, as a former justice minister who supported changes in the judiciary and the appointment of conservative judges, why don't you speak out in favor of parts of the reform?
"Because I think the government is making mistakes. First of all, the way it acted was a mistake, and in the end, the only achievement of this government in the legal field, in quotation marks of course, will be Legal Revolution 2, when the courts decide that they have the authority to invalidate Basic Laws."
Is taking additional powers of judges the responsibility of the government?
"The responsibility lies with the government, even if it's not always their fault."
So if I go back to the first question - don't you support?
"There is nothing to support because they have to act differently. Netanyahu's move to freeze the reform now is the right move in my opinion."
You said that your friends regularly participate in the protests, but do you accept the position of the refuseniks that they are saving the country by their actions?
"I oppose this step, I think it's wrong. I have to tell you that it's really present in my house because of my husband and his friends, who talk to him about it. My husband is not part of it, and I think they are wrong and that it is strategic damage in the long run, but you have to understand that they are acting out of the belief that it is the right thing. These are people who, up to the age of 50, leave their families and children and women and risk their lives on a flight, out of a sense of obligation and mission and Zionism. A friend of my husband's tearfully told him that he had told the squadron commander that he would not come again. He cried. It's not a step they take because they're elitist or anything, but out of distress.
"You have to understand, as far as the liberal and secular public is concerned, the High Court of Justice is like the Sabbath of the religious and ultra-Orthodox public. If you look into the eyes of the secular public, this reform was like ministers in the government of change declaring civil marriage, public transportation on the Sabbath, and more."
Right-wingers tell themselves that if they had acted this way in Oslo and the Disengagement, perhaps these steps would have been prevented.
"Again I say: not reporting for reserve duty is unacceptable in my view, something that must not happen. Not long ago, I told my friends from the left-wing camp to understand that the settlement enterprise is here to stay, because no one will dare evacuate any settlement anymore. The step they have taken has far-reaching effects."
In 2019, you were Mrs. Fascism, and in the eyes of the left, to recall the forgotten, your campaign "Shaked will win the High Court of Justice" was the worst thing back then.
"Everything is relative in life, it turns out," she laughs. "I think that today more people appreciate and understand that I acted in a state manner."
"I tried to convince Saar"
It's hard not to surf with Shaked for Dumas. Nonetheless, she has been justice minister for four years and campaigned in the 2019 elections around the issues that are stirring the street today. But just before diving into the powers of judges in disqualifying Basic Laws, I ask her about her new agenda and – how can it not – about the partner in the most fascinating duo that has ever existed in Israeli politics: Bennett-Shaked. While she often received the public's sympathy, in this pair she was often led by the initiatives of the former prime minister, from leaving the Jewish Home to the last government.
When did you last speak to Naftali Bennett?
"Yesterday."
About what?
"About a lot of things. We're in touch, we talk a lot. He told me about a meeting he had with doctors who were very worried about the situation and about the fear that doctors would leave the country."
Ayelet, every political commentator asks himself how he made you go with him on the last move.
"The reason is the good of the country, not my personal good. It's very simple. I made every effort to form a right-wing government when there were two options: the first – a government of 59 with Mansour Abbas, which Netanyahu wanted to do and tried to convince Smotrich without success, and the second – a right-wing government with Sa'ar, which I tried to convince Sa'ar without success. When I saw that there was no longer an option, I thought it was better to form a government than drag the country into another election. This government functioned well for a year or a year and a half. Not long ago I spoke with Elkin and I said to him, 'Do you understand that you made a mistake, that it would have been better for the state to form a government with Yamina and a new hope, rather than what we have today?' Well, we remained divided on this issue."
The camp you belong to still thinks that the previous government was a big mistake, not a national priority.
"First of all, thanks to the government of change, the right-wing government was established. It was a reaction to the government of change. Without that government, the right-wing government would not have come into being. So whoever wanted this government can't complain to me. Secondly, I did something that politically hurt me and I knew would hurt me in real time, but I went into politics to do what was right for the country, and I did what I thought was right at that point in time because there were no other options.
"In this government, I represented the right-wing camp in the clearest and most prominent way. Today there is great anger towards me in the left-wing camp for preventing the Defendant's Law at the time, you see it on social media, and I say - what did you expect? In this government, we have preserved the values for which we were elected. If the right-wing public judges me by my actions, they will see that I upheld the values of the camp."
Looking back, do you regret that?
"Look, it's not wise to judge it from that perspective. It was a very difficult year and a half for me. I went through heavy attacks from my camp, but again, at that point in time I thought it was the right thing for the country, and we really did good things for it. Today we see the false campaign that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir and others did against us then because of the attacks that took place, and today there are many more attacks and murders. I think maybe today people understand that they were brainwashed for a year and a half."
The wave of terror attacks began in your government, in the years before that the numbers were infinitely smaller.
"That's not true, let's get things in order. Every period there is a new wave of attacks. When Bennett took office in June, it was almost completely quiet. Around April of the following year, there was a wave of terror attacks that lasted a month and a half, and it stopped, and when this government was formed, a new wave emerged. I, unlike the members of this government, do not blame them and say that the blood of the murdered is on their hands, that this is what they did to me, but I tell them look, the number of murdered in the Arab sector has risen by tens of percent, and the number of Jews murdered in attacks is also rising, so act already."
In the end, they saw you as Margaret Thatcher (you wrote the introduction to the book about her in Israel), the leader of the camp. Polls predicted you to be a resounding success to the point of being prime minister. Aren't you really sorry that you followed Bennett several times to places you weren't sure you would have led to?
"If you ask, the mistake I've made in my career is this: leaving the Jewish home in 2019. To me, that was the mistake. We represented in a very good and correct and ethical way the national-religious public and the secular public that connects to the values of this public. As soon as we left then, to me that was the big break."
How will you restore trust with those potential voters of yours?
"I think that slowly more and more people are realizing that what I have done throughout my political career has served the right-wing camp and the entire Israeli public."
So come back?
"I don't know. In my estimation, there are three more years for this government, and I am enjoying life very much today. If I return, it will be where I've always been – part of the right-wing leadership between HaBayit Hayehudi and Yamina and the Likud."
To return to leadership, small parties will not suffice.
"You never know what the political map will look like in a few years. Everything can change. But like I said, I was a Likud member for many years and a member of the Jewish Home, these are definitely the places where I feel at home."
So you're not ruling out joining the Likud?
"I'm not ruling anything out."
"I hope the High Court won't intervene"
On the eve of the decisions and further discussions on the Basic Laws and the fear that the Supreme Court will pave the way for their disqualification for the first time, Shaked is highly critical of the judicial system and Attorney General Gali Bahar-Miara. "I think she went too far. The opinion she submitted regarding the reduction of the reasonableness cause and the request to cancel the Basic Law are wrong from start to finish, and I say this in gentle terms."
And about her recent recommendation to postpone the application of the amendment to the Prime Minister's Incapacitation Law?
"We should have respected what the Knesset said and that the law will apply this term. All this fear of incapacitation is very theoretical. No one intended to put Netanyahu into incapacitation, not even the attorney general."
Do you think the High Court of Justice has the authority to hear Basic Laws and cancel them?
"I was the first to talk about it. In the midst of my term as justice minister, the issue was on the agenda and I explained that there was no such authority. On the other hand, there is an argument that says that the Basic Laws are changed every week, so they are not really Basic Laws – of course there is something to this claim, but this is the Israeli constitutional situation. People ask me all the time what will happen if they pass a law that there are no more elections – OK, in such a situation you will intervene, because this is the destruction of Israeli democracy. But we're light years away from that situation."
The protesters, following former Supreme Court President Barak, are backtracking the Declaration of Independence as superior to the Basic Laws. Your position?
"The Declaration of Independence is an exemplary and formative document that shaped the image of the state, but it is not a constitutional text. None of its drafters imagined that on its basis Basic Laws would be abolished, and there is no basis for turning it into a super-constitution retroactively. The Charter should remain a consensus, and should not be pushed into this difficult controversy. Justice Solberg was also right, arguing that this is an eternal document that cannot be changed. A constitution, as we know, can be changed by a certain majority, usually two-thirds."
And if the Supreme Court intervenes, do you think we are headed for a constitutional crisis?
"I don't think so. I hope that the High Court of Justice will not intervene, but even if, God forbid, it does, I believe that the government will counteract the legislation, but it will uphold the ruling."
What section of the reform would you insist on passing?
"The best thing was to try to reach agreement on Basic Law: Legislation. Reserve the Basic Laws. But in the atmosphere created today, it's very, very difficult. So what is the right thing to do? Handle issues related to the prosecution and the State Prosecutor's Office. When I was Minister of Justice, we enshrined in legislation the Commission for Audit of the State Prosecutor's Office. I spoke with the State Prosecutor's Office many times and explained to them that many normative people are harmed by interrogations. I called it collateral damage to every investigation that is opened. Most people close the case, but they and their family have been scratched for life. There is much more consensus on both the left and the right on this issue, so if you ask what advice do I give the minister on the paper? Let's deal with the prosecution now."
Shaked Zera, Likud Reaps
The incumbent government faces a new crisis in the form of the draft law, as well as opportunities such as an agreement with Saudi Arabia and just about to enter the US visa exemption program, which Shaked has led over the past two years. In 2014, Shaked headed the committee that prepared the draft law in the Netanyahu government and the Lapid-Bennett brothers. Today she says that what worked then will no longer work. "The social situation today is very sensitive in this area as well, and we need to find a formula that will cause a massive exodus of Haredim to work by lowering the age of exemption, and will also require some kind of commitment from them. My son is enlisting in a captain's course. When I think he'll be thrown into the sea in the winter and won't sleep, it doesn't do me any good, and when I see good friends of mine anxious that their son will continue his rounds, it's wrong."
Of Saudi Arabia, she says, after holding meetings in Washington recently: "I'm very optimistic. Chances are there will be peace with Saudi Arabia in the coming year. There is a combination of interests with the United States, which wants to prevent Saudi Arabia from drawing closer to China and Iran, and on the other hand, bin Salman wants civilian nuclear energy. In my opinion, this combination of interests will prevail over any other interest. The Israeli government needs to make sure that under this agreement, Saudi Arabia will be able to buy uranium under supervision, and not enrich on its soil. I very much hope that Netanyahu will insist on this."
On Tuesday, immediately after Yom Kippur, the United States is expected to announce Israel's entry into the visa waiver program. I ask Shaked if her heart is sour that she won't be the one to cut the red ribbon on a move she promoted, which many in Israel wished for.
"My heart is sour, but I'm glad the project is ending. When I started it, everyone was skeptical, they told me, 'For 15 years, everyone has been trying and no one has succeeded.' And here we succeeded for several reasons: Biden promised it to Bennett and he was cooperative. It was important to the president and me, and I had a partner on the other side, Tom Nides, who pushed it with me on a daily basis. The third reason is a meeting I had with Alejandro Mayorkas, the Secretary of Homeland Security. I asked him, 'What do I need to do to succeed?' and he told me that we need a projector. So Bennett gave me the responsibility, and I appointed Gil Beringer as the projector. And even though the Likud didn't let me complete the legislation during my time, I'm glad that they will finish this process soon successfully."
"I'm much more smiling"
The person accompanying me for the interview is photographer Avishag Shar-Yashuv, whose photo is particularly memorable from the last election campaign, in which Ayelet Shaked is seen sitting alone in front of a table. The loneliness, as well as the low chances of success in that election, were evident to the bystander. I ask Shaked what has changed since then in her life.
"Everything," she replies honestly. "When she photographed me, it was in the midst of a very difficult election campaign. I knew I was fighting an almost impossible battle, but I knew I was fighting anyway. I thought, and today it turns out that I was right, that the voice of the right, the former Jewish Home, should be present in the government. But the public thought otherwise. The public followed Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, and today my life is different. You see, I'm much more smiling," she demonstrates to me.
So what does the former interior minister do? Not exactly vacationing. She chairs the board of directors of a real estate company, gives lectures in Jewish communities around the world, chairs the Friends of Schneider Hospital on a voluntary basis, and in her free time (as if there is) deals with the integration of Haredim into the world of employment. "I find myself as the face of the State of Israel when I go to Jewish communities overseas, because today government ministers are not invited to these events, and I often find myself defending the government, the country. There is a lot of embarrassment.
"People don't really know what's happening here, and for some it seems that Israel is in a very serious crisis. I see those who are really afraid for the existence of the state from a personal place, because Israel is the safe place to go if something happens. I explain to them that this country is strong and that it is true that there is a difficult internal crisis, and I explain about the judicial system so that they understand that the country is not on the verge of dissolution. That Israel's democracy is strong and that it will remain so."
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