Even before the not-entirely-coincidental timing of the conversation between him and Bernard-Henri Levy comes up deliberately, Itai Engel discusses its importance during the High Holy Days. A day after Rosh Hashanah and a few days before Yom Kippur, Engel, an Israeli journalist whose name precedes him when it comes to covering international disputes and documenting bloody battle scenes, met with Levy, a French intellectual, filmmaker and intellectual, for a conversation about the elephant that has been on the map of Europe for a year and seven months.
As expected, neither is satisfied with a remote analysis of the war between Russia and Ukraine (or each other's invasion of the other, to be precise). Each of them visited there during the 19 months of fighting. He documented, met and brought testimonies from the ground of what appears to be a war with many casualties and deaths, which changed the face of Europe and about which the prevailing perception is unprecedented on the continent in the past 50 years. Having witnessed it up close, met the Ukrainian fighters and heard the story straight from their mouths (even from those who did not get to return from it), they know how to accurately explain the great difference between the bloody Russian-Ukrainian battle and previous wars.
"We were both at war in Bosnia," Engel says. "You know – Croatia, Bosnia and then Kosovo. It was the first war on the European continent since World War II, and it was terrible. But the current war has a catastrophic element that is absent from the Balkan wars. In other words, there is a real possibility of nuclear power here, of World War III. Of an empire that wants to completely destroy a nation, a country, a people - just wants to wipe them out. Imagine that until a year and a half ago we lived with a very simple concept, which is that if countries exist, they are here to stay. They may go through hard times, good times, but they will never be wiped off the face of the earth. You have the globe on the table, and these countries exist on it. Cameroon, Ukraine, Israel.
"This simple idea suddenly disappeared. In other words, we realized that even in 2023, countries can be erased and completely forgotten. Russia is trying to do it now in Ukraine, and if it succeeds, it will simply proceed to the next country. Among other things, it will encourage China to invade Taiwan and Iran to eliminate the State of Israel. It's something I don't remember happening in the last few decades. Not even in Bosnia. Even though it was a terrible war, I didn't feel there was a chance that the people, the nation or the country would disappear."
"They said Ukraine has 72 hours to live. What happened here is a miracle." Itai Engel while documenting the demolitions in the cities, photo: courtesy of "Ovda" and Eddie Gerald
Levy: "There have been several huge wars in recent decades, and Itai and I have witnessed them. Bosnia, as you said, was a monstrous war. A besieged city, civilians were shot as if it were an amusement fair. We have been present in several places where there have been savage wars. We were in Mogadishu, in lost places in Africa. War is not a new phenomenon, and we have known many violent wars. By the way, we also experienced the threat of erasure of a state. You know this better than anyone, and I do a little too, because Israel's very existence has been threatened by so many wars. This is not new.
"There are two things that make this war unique. The first is Putin. Putin, as a superpower, leads a murderous and fascist ideology with nuclear power. This has not happened before. This was not the case in Bosnia, not in Angola, and not in the wars that Israel had to deal with. Putin makes a difference. A serial killer with such a weapon who heads a superpower – it hasn't happened since World War II.
"The second difference is that the West is weak. When this war in Ukraine – or the war against Ukraine, as I prefer to put it – began, the West looked weak. This war happened because Putin believed, and I hope it was a mistake for him to think so, that democracies were kneeling and would not respond. In recent years, the West has betrayed the Kurds. We drew a red line in Syria, but we didn't respect it. We withdrew so shamefully from Afghanistan.
"A serial killer at the head of a superpower with nuclear weapons." Russian President Putin, photo: AFP
"So the second difference is that this war started in a geopolitical climate where, for the first time, a very bad person — a neo-fascist, you could say — had some reason to believe that the West was very weak, and that again, as in Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Syria, he would close his eyes. These are the two main differences between this war and those that preceded it in recent decades."
"Ukrainian admiration for Jews." Bernard-Henri Levy at the synagogue in Dnipro, photo: Marc Roussel
Engel: And that's why it's so important for us to take a stand. And when I say 'us' I mean companies, people, journalists, policymakers, countries. I think I can also speak for Bernard and say there is a bit of disappointment. We feel that the State of Israel could have handled this situation better."
As someone who has been there, on the battlefield, can you say that among the Ukrainian soldiers there is a sentiment of disappointment – especially from Israel?
Engel: "I remember that in the first weeks of the war, when we went to Irpin and Bucha on the outskirts of Kiev, according to an analysis by American, British and Israeli intelligence, Ukraine had 72 hours to live. That is, the best intelligence institutions, which are supposed to understand, tell you that within three days there will be no country called Ukraine. According to this, what happened was a kind of miracle, which took place in Irpin and Bucha later.
"You suddenly also understand the spirit of the Ukrainian people, which I think is incredibly expressed in Bernard-Henri's films. And then you realize the arrogance of the Russian army, which the world thought was quite unique and sophisticated, and apparently this was not the case. Apparently people in the ranks of Russia did not know exactly what they were fighting for. But I want to emphasize that suddenly there was an idea that Ukraine could win, survive. Israel then became a kind of example. I remember going there and mentioning that I was Israeli, and they said: 'Wow, are you Israeli? Come, I'll give you a ride, let me take you into Bucha, let me take you into Irpin, we'll do whatever you want to do.' The expectations from Israel were huge.
Engel: "This war has a catastrophic element. There is a real possibility of nuclear power here, of World War III. of an empire that wants to destroy a nation. Until a year and a half ago, we lived with a very simple concept, which is that if countries exist, they are here to stay."
"Think about it: As we speak, Ukraine is being shelled. I'm not talking about Ukrainian soldiers. They are also bombed, but I'm talking about cities like Dnipro, Lviv, Kiev, Odessa. People are being murdered. And when they look everywhere, they see that there is only one country where rockets and missiles are fired, but for some reason these missiles don't reach their targets because they stop in the sky. So obviously we've become a target. "Hey, please bring us weapons to defend ourselves." The expectations from Israel were huge."
Levy: "There's a very powerful part of the film I'm working on these days, dedicated to what we're talking about – Ukrainians' admiration for Israel, for Jewish heroes. Not just for Zelenskyy. Zelensky is a Jewish hero, as in the biblical stories. But I'm talking about others I've met and mentored. I was assigned with some Jewish-Ukrainian heroes on the front line. One of them was seriously wounded. I spent some time with them. I spent time for this film in the Jewish world of Ukraine and, of course, tried to understand the relationship between Ukrainian Jews and Ukraine itself. And there is a part of this film that deals with the patriotism of the Jews in Ukraine, and powerfully, with the ferment of Jewish life in Ukraine today.
Levy: "I was in the Klishchayevka area with an assault brigade that declared victory. They knew I was a proud Jew, a friend of Israel, and they were happy about it. And they asked me about the history of Zionism, linking their struggle against Putin to Israel's struggle for independence."
"Finally, by chance, I met and spoke with two Israeli soldiers, a veteran and a young man, who had volunteered in the Ukrainian army almost from day one. I had the great privilege of meeting them. They appear in the film with their three non-Jewish Ukrainian comrades, their brothers in arms. They hadn't seen each other before for a few weeks, maybe months. And I saw their encounter, their embrace, it was very moving. This part of the film clarifies the relations between Jews and Ukraine, and on the battlefield, on the ground, of Israeli civilians like Itai. This is not the first time in history that the country is on one side, while civil society – the two gentlemen I am talking about – are on the other side. There's no exact match there."
"Jewish hero". Zelenskyy,
Propaganda and cheap art
Engel says that during his visit to Ukraine, he was summoned with a group of journalists to the government compound, and at first he had no idea that he would meet with President Zelensky. "We assumed he had already left Ukraine, and then he showed up and it was very exciting, especially for me. It was an opportunity to ask him if he had asked Israel for help, and if he, as a Jew, thought there were special ties between him and the Jewish state. I will never forget the first part of his answer.
"It will sound insulting, but I think I have no choice but to tell you how disappointed he is in the country. Not from the people themselves, he loves the Israeli people, he admires them. But he is so disappointed in the State of Israel. I think Bernard felt it too, because we've been to so many places like Kurdistan, asking 'Why don't you help us? We share the same faith.' When I was in Nagorno-Karabakh, in the battle between the Azeris and the Armenians, we provided the Azeris with all the military means to overthrow the Armenians, and the Armenians were so disappointed. So you encounter it, and from conflict to conflict I think I feel worse, because since that meeting with Zelensky, the situation has deteriorated.
"Over the past two weeks, I, as an Israeli, have been ashamed as never before. Israel is the only country on earth that has signed a cultural agreement with Russia's Ministry of Culture for cooperation in film productions (a cooperation agreement signed two weeks ago between Russia's Minister of Culture and Israeli Ambassador Alexander Ben-Zvi). It's absolutely insane.
When you think of film productions in Russia, or any kind of art in Russia, it can be actors, directors, dancers, poets or writers. If any of them have a mind against the regime, they will find themselves poisoned or thrown out of the window of a tall building. Either they run away or they will be behind bars. No other country has signed anything like this since the beginning of the war."
Levy: "Of course there is disappointment in Ukraine. And that's how I felt, from my conversations with commanders, with soldiers, with the presidential administration, and so on. There was an expectation from Israel. I myself am a Zionist, I love Israel. She's part of my being - and I'm disappointed. As far as I'm concerned, it has made a historic mistake so far. I can understand and accept tactical maneuvers, it's legitimate. Israel is a country that is in a state of constant war, it itself is besieged by terrible enemies. But when these tactical moves become a true alliance, something that smells like brotherhood, cultural links and so on, it becomes something else.
"As far as Israel is concerned, I think this is a trap. I could give you so many examples in the history of the Jewish people, even before the establishment of the state. Every time the Jews compromised in spirit with the worst, with their deepest enemies, with a few people who embodied values that were not their own, the result turned out to be bad for the Jews. So I really believe that if things continue like this, it will be bad for Israel. Bad for its national interest."
Levy: "This war began in a geopolitical climate where, for the first time, a very bad person – a neo-fascist, you could say – had several reasons to believe that the West was very weak, and that again, as in Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Syria, he would close his eyes."
Engel: "Now in Russian cinemas there is a film called 'The Witness.' It's unbelievable what I'm going to tell you, but it tells the story of a Belgian-Jewish guy who happened to be in Kiev when the war broke out. They don't call it 'Russian invasion,' but 'war broke out.' You see him as a commander in the Ukrainian army reading Hitler's Mein Kampf, walking the streets and all the Ukrainian soldiers making Nazi salutes. It's like 'the return of the Nazis.' You see swastikas and Ukrainian soldiers killing Jews. It's so sick, so crazy to think that Israel is collaborating with this."
Somewhat ironically, it is reminiscent of Leni Riefenstahl's propaganda films.
"It's kind of Leni Riefenstahl, but at least she was talented. It's the cheapest art form you can imagine, and we collaborate with them! We donated to Russia the equivalent of $320 million for this propaganda, for working with them. We are the only country on earth that has done this. And all this is happening, by the way, in parallel with the shelling of the market in Konstantinovka. Seventeen people were killed there, including children, and dozens more were wounded.
"And we have no shame. At the same time, President Herzog is calling Emmanuel Macron and trying to persuade him to ease French sanctions against a Russian oligarch named Moshe Kantor, who is helping Putin finance the war in Ukraine. As an Israeli, as a Jewish person, you know, you think about your values, you think about your community, about the country, and you ask: 'Could it be worse?' I feel really bad about it, and that's the impression I've had since the beginning of the war until the last few weeks."
Photo: Mykola Turupov,
Levy: "I hadn't heard of the cultural contract, but I definitely heard about Konstantinovka. A few days before the massacre in the market, I photographed Ukrainian cultural forces, that is, singers and musicians, coming to sing, to give hope, to raise the morale of the soldiers. I wanted to say that in a sense, and quite strangely, there is disappointment on the Ukrainian front, but not necessarily bitterness. Israel and the Jews still carry a positive image among these Ukrainian fighters. Disappointment is a fact, but it did not create bitterness.
Levy: "Every time the Jews compromised in spirit with the worst, with their deep enemies, with a few people who embodied values that were not their own, the result turned out to be bad for the Jews. If things continue like this [cooperation with Russia], it will be bad."
"Two weeks ago I was in the Klishchayevka area with an assault brigade that declared victory a few days ago. They knew I was a proud Jew, they knew I was a friend of Israel, and they were happy about it. And they asked me questions about the history of Zionism. They linked their struggle against Putin to Israel's struggle for its independence, security, existence, etc. So this may sound like a paradox. I think this is an opportunity for us friends of Israel as well: there is still time.
"If the State of Israel decides tomorrow to make amends, to make a U-turn, to really help or to help more, it will still be welcome. There are few countries in the world that I have seen such high expectations of, such admiration for them and such a degree of identification on the part of Ukrainians."
"This war started because the West looks weak." House demolitions in Ukraine, photo: courtesy of "Ovda" Wadi Gerald
They both know each other's work well. Their encounter opens with an exchange of compliments and mutual praise from those who share more than professional practice with each other. An uncompromising journalistic enterprise, based on tying their fate to the fate of the object of their coverage.
"I grew up on his work, and his manifestos inspired me," says Engel, 55. "It's an honor for me to know that sometimes our works are linked, and to understand that on many issues, especially the Ukrainian one, we share the same opinions and values." Levy responds, "I like the idea of a journalist taking sides, and I like the idea of an activist trying to be objective."
Engel: "As a documentary filmmaker and reporter, I would like to be completely objective. I travel a lot, in Iraq and Syria. Lots of places that have nothing to do with Judaism. But here you have a kind of feeling of a familiar place, for better or for worse. One of my grandparents came from Kharkiv."
Criticism from Proud Jewish Zionists
Their commitment to mediating truth is a rare sight today, in an age when reporters sit in air-conditioned studios and intellectuals criticize fascists in online posts. Like the intellectuals of yesteryear, both are unconventional representations of recruited thinkers, who produce moral reading and who use the tools at their disposal to try to awaken the conscience of the society in which they operate, and to point out what they perceive as one of the greatest injustices humanity has known in recent decades.
Each does it in its own way: Engel's documentary documenting the Russia-Ukraine war is nominated for an International Emmy Award in the investigative category. Ovda journalist, together with photographer Eddie Gerald, documented Ukrainian civilians and soldiers in the cities of Kyiv and Irpin and in the settlement of Gorenka.
Levy, 74, is also considered a long-standing moral compass in his country: in the 90s he became the first intellectual to call on France to intervene in the war in Bosnia and the ethnic cleansing carried out by the Serbs. Like Engel, he traveled the world in order to give as unique and honest an angle as possible on battlefields. He, too, is accustomed to wallowing in bleeding wounds. And as he testified, he is a proud Zionist, who has published books (albeit somewhat controversial) on the subject and received honorary degrees from Israel, and who is not afraid to criticize European public opinion towards it.
Levy often talks about his love for the country and his sense of belonging to it, but he criticizes it quite a bit (he recently did so in the context of the reform of the judicial system). Over the past year and a half, he has devoted most of his attention to the campaign in Ukraine. Last May, his film "Slava Ukraini" ("To the Glory of Ukraine") was released, in which, like his Israeli counterpart and following previous films he directed on the subject, he brings testimonies straight from the battlefield, of the life force and fortitude of Ukrainians.
"To be present when there is a threat to humanity." Levy with Ukrainian soldiers near the northern border, photo: Marc Roussel
It is therefore necessary to wonder about the meaning of the desire to commemorate, document and point out what is currently considered the worst war Europe has known for many decades. Moreover, it is necessary to link the purpose they engraved on their flag to their sources. In other words, to what extent is their Jewishness connected to the agenda and the need to bring the truth straight from the horse's mouth?
"As a documentary filmmaker and reporter, I'd like to be completely objective," Engel explains. "I travel a lot, you know, in Iraq and Syria. Lots of places that have nothing to do with Judaism. But in this case you have a kind of familiar place, for better or for worse. One of my grandfathers came from the Soviet Union, from Kharkiv. His name was John and he came to Israel 100 years ago. He helped build the port of Tel Aviv, where ammunition reached the Jewish community, because it was the only way for it to survive. He suffered during World War II, and in Israel he married Hannah, who came from Poland and whose seven members of her family perished in Auschwitz.
Engel: "You suddenly also understand the spirit of the Ukrainian people, which is also expressed in Bernard's films. And then you realize the arrogance of the Russian army, which the world thought was quite unique and sophisticated, and apparently that was not the case."
"My grandfather was a tough man. He once said to me when I was a child: 'If I had a big torch, I would bring into this torch the entire German people, and all the people who collaborated with them. Poles, Croats.' And he also told me that a lot of Ukrainians took a big risk and helped save Jews. In fact, distant relatives of mine are alive today and did not die there, just because Ukrainians helped them and hid them during World War II.
"You think about your values, and you think, could it be worse?" Engel in Ukraine, photo: from "Fact"
"Grandpa was the person who influenced me the most, and he told me, 'Don't let anyone tell you that there is absolute good and evil. There is no black and white.' And something else: 'If someone was good at a certain point in time, within ten or twenty years it might be completely reversed. You know, history is dynamic. If you really want to know what's going on, forget about the past and go see for yourself.' He also told me a sentence in Russian, which says: 'The eyes are afraid, but the hands do.' That influenced me the most to do what Bernard does. We never talk about places we haven't been. They don't talk about people we've never met."
Engel: "Over the past two weeks, as an Israeli, I have been ashamed as I have never been before. Israel is the only country that has signed a cooperation agreement with Russia's Ministry of Culture. No other country has signed anything like this since the beginning of the war."
Levy: "To be a Jew means to have a relationship with the rest of humanity, to accompany the rest of humanity on its path towards redemption. There is a well-known saying of our sages that says: '70 faces to the Torah.' In other words, to be Jewish means to read every verse of the Torah, every word of the Talmud, as if it had 70 interpretations. As if every drop of ink in which the Torah was written had 70 faces. To be Jewish is to be associated with it. And to be associated with that is to be present when there is a threat to the very essence of humanity. So as far as I'm concerned, my Judaism is clear, and it's committed for almost 600 days."
"If the State of Israel decides to make amends, to really help, it will still be welcome." Ruins of the bridge between Irpin and Kiev, photo: courtesy of "Ovda" and Eddie Gerald
Engel: "I read a lot of Bernard's books about the genius of the Jewish people, and I remember reading them with my father. It was interesting for me to read this, because I know what Bernard is doing and I know he's about what matters most to me – being a person who provides a perspective on humanity. And that means being out there. Don't talk from a TV studio about places you've never been, don't comment on people you've never met. It is easier for me to understand what he says about Judaism in the context of where we live today, where Israeli society is very divided.
"I am a Jew in all my bones. Bernard is a Jew, a patriotic Israeli. We're both like that. The fact that we are critical of Israel and disappointed with it is because we are Israelis, because we feel Jewish. I mean, we're basically saying, 'What the hell did we miss? What was missed here? Does politics make us blind?'
"You have to open your eyes, go to the field. Watch some of the horrific videos of the people Israel has chosen to collaborate with, like the Russian regime. Therefore, it is very important for people to understand from this conversation that it is taking place between people who are true Jewish Zionists. And I think maybe this time we're on the wrong side of history."
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