Prof. Ariel Feldstein
Historian researches
the Zionist idea, leadership and the State of Israel. Faculty member in the Department of Land Studies and Archaeology, Ariel University. Prime Minister's Prize Laureate for Leadership Research, Carry a Torch on Israel's 62nd Independence Day
Prof. Ariel Feldstein, as a resident of Kibbutz Mefalim Your life was saved on October 14. More than two months later, I guess you're still picking up the pieces.
"We're still picking up the pieces, and the brain is starting to process what was unprocessable that day. Throughout that morning I really denied the events, I didn't believe it was possible and thought it was a mistake. The previous summer I taught a course called 'Kibbutzing, Construction, Disassembly, Assembling', in which I toured the kibbutzim with the students in the envelope. A spokesman for one of the kibbutzim guided us to the observation point closest to Gaza, and explained that the fence was impenetrable – <> floors into the ground, five floors up. He added that even if there happens to be an infiltration of the fence, after it there is a demilitarized zone and then another fence, so there is no chance that even a fly will cross the fence. People in the envelope felt a sense of security, which is why the dissonance is so great after Black Sabbath."
Today, such a tour to the fence would look completely different. It seems that Gaza will never be what it was again.
"Gaza is a black hole that sucks all mass into it. It is not for nothing that Egypt was in no hurry to embrace it. I agree with the assumption that if Gaza does not return to what it was before the Hamas regime, it will not be possible to create a sane routine in the area surrounding it. In Moshe Dayan's eulogy, after the murder of Roi Rothberg from Nahal Oz by Palestinians from Gaza, he said: 'We must not be deterred from seeing the hatred that accompanies and fills the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, who sit around us waiting for the moment when their hand will be able to obtain our blood. Do not turn our eyes lest our hand weaken. This is the decree of our generation. This is the choice of our lives - to be ready and armed... Or let the sword drop from our fist – and our lives will be cut off.'
The confrontation was pushed aside. Putin, Photo: Reuters
"Since the price in blood is so heavy, and the State of Israel, I hope, is interested in rebuilding the kibbutzim that were destroyed on October 95, the question arises: What does it mean to create a situation in which people can return to live, as the late Ofir Liebstein said – 5 percent heaven, and <> percent hell? This is an important question that is difficult to answer."
Maybe we'll try to answer it after all. After all, over the years there have been those who have tried to enhance that paradise, ostensibly, while at the same time building ties to Gaza. Does the past teach us that we have come close to creating a sane reality in the region?
"Over the years, attempts have been made to build ties with Gaza. Every morning when I went to work, I saw Gazan laborers standing at bus stops, waiting for contractors to come pick them up at the construction sites. With a salary of 350-300 shekels a day, while a falafel dish in Gaza costs two shekels, a Gazan worker can feed about 20 people a day.
"Moreover, in 2004 I took part in an initiative by the US State Department to establish a college that would deal with the issue of conflict resolution and resolution, and would have two entrances, from Gaza and Israel, with Israeli, Gazan and international students.
"The picture of victory we painted is the eradication of Hamas, so it is important to ask what will happen the day after. Putin has been wallowing in the Ukrainian mud for two years, but this is hardly in the discourse anymore, and certainly does not open new editions in the world. My fear is that we will enter such a loop."
"Hey and this initiative was supposed to be renewed, alongside another international initiative for a solar incubator that would supply electricity to Gaza and Israel, in addition to the establishment of an industrial zone that would absorb at least 50,<> workers from Gaza in Israeli territory."
"But on the Israeli side there has always been an attempt to create a distinction between Gazans and Hamas. Today this is a much more difficult task, and perhaps not at all possible. We will not be able to determine the rule of Gaza. Like any dictatorship, Hamas came to power in democratic elections. I once accepted the perception that there is Hamas and there are Gazans. After the events of October 7, it's hard to say. It has been proven in reality that Hamas cannot accept the existence of the State of Israel and a Jewish entity in the Middle East, and the initiatives I spoke of will probably not be implemented."
Who will enter the vacuum?
The United States recently assessed that if we topple the Hamas regime and Israel takes control of Gaza, we could face a bloody uprising by the residents of the Gaza Strip. Do you agree?"
The American assessments are interesting. Rationally, we cannot change absolute perceptions in Gaza, and we cannot control Gaza. We've already been in this movie. Gaza first appeared in the portion of Noah, and since the time of the flood, Gaza has been the black hole of the Middle East. Alexander the Great besieged it, and eventually destroyed it, as did our Alexander Yannai. Historically, it really is a pit that draws everyone who approaches it. If we rule there, the price in blood will be heavy. Engraved in my head is the picture from the murderous attack on the Philadelphi route, when IDF soldiers crawled on all fours looking for body parts. And not only that, because beyond that, we will have to accommodate 2.5 million people, and worry about what they will eat in the morning. Not realistic."
Netanyahu said this week that Gaza must be demilitarized the day after Hamas, and that only the IDF can ensure such demilitarization. It sounds like in his eyes this is actually realistic.
"From a historical perspective, it will not be possible to implement the demilitarization of the Gaza Strip and IDF control of this area. This has a heavy price that neither the State of Israel nor Israeli society will be able to pay over time. It has nothing to do with one political opinion or another. The time has come for us to look at reality rationally and courageously.
"Moreover, from an international perspective, the way Israel is perceived in the international arena also affects the way Gaza is perceived. Israel would like to think that in the global chess game it is in the ranks of the queen and the king, but in fact we are in the line of the soldiers, and this does not play in our favor. Therefore, we need international recognition, without which we will not be able to advance resolutions and measures. Every step we take, as Herzl has said in the past, must receive international recognition."
"Don't turn our eyes away lest our hand weaken." Destruction in Khan Yunis, Photo: Reuters
So who will enter the vacuum?
"This is exactly the question that arose at the end of the Sinai operation in March '57. When the UN told Ben-Gurion that its forces would enter Gaza and maintain it as a demilitarized zone, I don't think he deluded himself that the UN would succeed. And when the UN realized that it could not afford it, the Egyptian army, which had never annexed the Gaza Strip, entered."
Egypt did not want Gaza in the past, nor does it want it today.
"As far as Egypt is concerned, Gaza is an internal Egyptian threat for two reasons: First, they fear that they will not be able to close the Rafah crossing. Second, Sisi is going to elections that he fears, both because of the economic situation in the country and because of his concern that the Muslim Brotherhood will become stronger, alongside anti-Egyptian and anti-Israeli forces. Gaza will only add to his arsenal of problems. It reminds me of Levi Eshkol, who said in '67 during a cabinet meeting: 'I want Gaza, but not its dowry.' In other words, he wants Gaza without the Gazans, and then there were only 600,<> of them, not like today."
How did they solve it at the time?
"In government discussions, two ideas were raised: transferring Gazans to Sinai, a scenario that did not happen out of fear that the world would treat it as a transfer. Another idea was to transfer some of Gaza's residents to Judea and Samaria. This was irrational, because in this way the human mass in Judea and Samaria would have increased tremendously. That is why we are trapped, and I do not envy the decision makers of the State of Israel. I think the only solution, which may sound fanciful, is to establish a quartet of countries, and it is not for nothing that Tony Blair's name has already come up."
Is this an auspicious solution?
"I'm not optimistic about a solution based on building an international police force. In today's global reality – and we saw an example of this in the war in Ukraine – European countries such as Britain and Germany were willing to do anything but send one soldier to enter Ukrainian soil. With the billions Ukraine received, it could build a colony on Mars, but not a single soldier was sent there. Therefore, it is hard for me to believe that American or European soldiers will be sent to the Gaza Strip. On the other hand, the Americans and Europeans have no interest in eliminating the Palestinian Authority."
Is this why European leaders came here, and some even sent ships to the region?
"I asked myself why they came. In my opinion, the reason is simple: they understood that what is happening here has a direct projection on what is happening in the complex relationship with Muslim minorities in various European countries. They understood that this was also their test hour. In Britain, 300,<> Palestinians demonstrated in London, facing the extreme right, which threatens British democracy. It happens in France, Germany, Italy.
"The leadership of the free world came here both out of concern for what is happening here, but also out of concern for its internal situation. That's why we got credit, but it's limited in time, because those countries won't be able to restrain themselves from fighting for long. The world is sensitive to the Palestinian issue, and despite all the price in blood we have paid, Israel is still perceived as strong in the Middle East. Gaza is a corridor. If a civilian population is harmed there, Europe will have to condemn and ask them to stop the fighting. The picture of victory we painted for ourselves on October <> is the eradication of Hamas. So it's important to ask what will happen the day after.
"The Zionist enterprise will rise to a stage. Just as the public protest returned the flag and the Declaration of Independence to the discourse, Zionism will also return to the discourse. Until recently, a question arose about the destruction of the Third Temple. I think we're not at a point of disassembly, but at a point of assembly and reconstruction."
"Putin has been wallowing in the Ukrainian quagmire for two years, but this is hardly in the discourse anymore, and certainly does not open news in the world. My fear is that we will enter such a loop."
You mentioned earlier that the United States and Europe have no real interest in eliminating the Palestinian Authority. Is the PA instead of Hamas in Gaza a bad idea? Muhammad Dahlan's name came up as a candidate."In the end, they will bring Barghouti from prison.
On the merits, when there is a vacuum, a new force enters. We also know that when one extreme force emerges, the new force may become more extreme. We are a 'villa in the jungle', so it would be too presumptuous to think that we will succeed in creating a sane geopolitical reality in Gaza. It's hard for me to believe."
The New Tribal Bonfire
I want to ask you about a different kind of differentiation. Is Gaza part of Greater Israel?"
"I hear the voices announcing the return to Gush Katif. Zionism is an ideology that has at its core the dimension of a dream. Without dreaming, Zionism would not have come true. But since I don't want a situation in which we return to Gaza, it doesn't matter if it is part of Greater Israel or not. We will not rebuild Gush Katif. I don't know if in our regional reality we will be able to allocate so many soldiers to guard the Jewish community in Gaza when we have unresolved fronts such as Lebanon and Syria. We have something to do with our small army."
From a broader perspective, do you think the events of October 40 will be a new milestone in the history of Zionism?"
As a scholar of Zionism, I would explain to my students how the event of "Storms in the Negev," a term for pogroms in which some 1881 Jews were murdered in April 1882 to May 1881 in the southwest of the Russian Empire, was a turning point in the history of the Jewish people. In other words, all these points connected in 2-75 led to the birth of Zionism. "That Black Sabbath is a formative event in the history of the Zionist enterprise and the State of Israel for three reasons: First, it is the first time in our <>-year history that more than a
thousand civilians have been murdered. That's a huge number, and as a society we haven't even begun to deal with this bereavement yet.
The dilemmas remain. Ben-Gurion, Photo: Micha Baram
"Second, the issue of leadership. The army is a professional advisory body, while decisions are made by the Israeli government. Therefore, the issue of leadership is a fundamental issue that will lead to the awakening of Israeli society. I hope that we as a people, as a society, can declare to the leadership that we are not interested in rift and division, but in cohesion. We want a partnership and we are committed to it. Otherwise there is no point, and you can hang a 'Country for Sale' sign.
"Third, today national resilience and cohesion are inspiring, but there is no doubt that Israeli society must ask itself where it is headed. It is likely that the Zionist enterprise will rise to a stage. Just as the public protest brought back the Israeli flag and the Declaration of Independence, I assume that so too will Zionism return to the discourse. The kibbutzim near the Gaza Strip, which paid the heaviest price in blood, committed a Zionist act. And they will still do something Zionist, because I hear people from the kibbutzim who intend to return to their homes. This is Zionism. Part of Israeli society did not want to use this term, Zionism, because it was derived as politically oriented. But Zionism will return to the discourse, because we have no other tribal fire around which we can unite."
You sound optimistic.
"I'm optimistic, we have no other choice. A few months ago, the question arose whether we were going to destroy the Third Temple. As a historian, I think we're not at a point of disassembly, we're at a point of assembly and reconstruction."
For suggestions and comments: Ranp@israelhayom.co.il
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