Yossi Eli is a guest on Tik Tok/Walla! System, Reuven Castro
When News 13's police reporter Yossi Eli discovered the police cover-up in the Yuval Castleman shooting case, even he - who had already covered quite a few police failures - rubbed his eyes repeatedly in astonishment.
"This incident is really a serious incident by any standard. You see that this is an Israeli hero, who rowed for contact and then begged for his life and did everything right. Then the police did not inform his family for 9 hours."
Reminder:
Eli published details regarding the killing of Castelman, who was killed in a two-sided shooting incident on November 30 at the entrance to Jerusalem on November 30, 2023. Documentation of the shooting in which Castelman is seen raising his hands and begging for his life was published by him and led to the opening of an investigation by the investigating military police.
Meanwhile, he revealed to me the negligence of the police in investigating the incident.
In a conversation on the occasion of his winning the Israel Press Institute award for 2023 following the revelation of the affair, Eli tells on the Institute's Tiktok podcast about the conduct of the police ("an organizational culture of lies and manipulation"), about the feeling at the top of the organization under Minister Ben Gabir ("They say we were kidnapped"), about why he He continues to tweet the threats he receives on his life ("You must not get used to the poison culture") and on the competitors ("I turn on the 12 News every night anxiously to see what is being broadcast").
Part of the conversation is presented here in the article.
Listen or watch the full conversation.
"Then something more disturbing happens. The shooter is interviewed by Lenon Magal on Channel 14 and brags there, everyone wants Xs, maybe it's my X, maybe it's another soldier's X. Then Yanon asks him, did you verify the kill? And he says, 'Yes, we shot them until they fell'"
Come tell me the sequence of events on the way to publishing the truth about the tragic death of Yuval Castleman.
"This story, perhaps one of the most shocking stories I've come across, certainly in recent years, and it really happens on the same morning of the serious attack in Jerusalem, two terrorists who come to hitchhike at the entrance to Jerusalem get out, start spraying, murder three Jewish citizens and then comes Yuval the Hero. And before that, And let's go back to that, no one knew at all that there was the citizen who neutralized the terrorists. They thought that the soldiers who were there were there, they were the ones who allegedly neutralized the terrorists.
"Many, many hours pass, and then towards evening I suddenly receive the famous video.
I saw a lot of things on October 7th, but this video kept me awake because it clearly shows that Yuval Castleman, who neutralized two terrorists, is walking from the opposite direction, simply striving for contact.
Not many people would do such a thing, neither soldiers nor policemen.
He simply neutralizes the two terrorists, does everything right, takes off his coat, throws away the weapon, begs for his life, raises his hands.
After he realizes that his life is in danger, he also throws the wallet so that they will see the ID, but it doesn't help, he is just shot to death by three bullets.
"You see that this is a human being, a hero of Israel, who strived for contact and then begged for his life and did everything right. By the way, according to opening fire procedures, it is forbidden to shoot someone who surrenders even if it is a terrorist.
"And then something more disturbing happens.
The shooter is interviewed by Linon Magal on Channel 14 and brags there, everyone wants Xs, maybe it's my X, maybe it's another soldier's X.
Then Yanon asks him, did you confirm the killing?
And he says 'yes, we shot them until they fell'.
"It's important for me to say, the shooter is a soldier and we're talking about a very dirty scene, you know, when there's an attack, so no one really knows and there's a lot of unprovoked shooting in this case, but when you hear the context of this conversation and see the video and the things What Castelman did, you see that this is a very serious and very difficult event."
Then you also receive his medical report, the CT scan and find out.
"Yes, it happens later.
It can be said that there is a chain of very large omissions, also by the police.
Even though he throws away his wallet and the ID card that says he is Jewish, he is taken to the hospital and for 9 hours he fights for his life when the family doesn't know at all that he is fighting for his life, they don't know.
She has no idea.
We are talking about a family of people from the sea, Yuval Castleman's father, think for yourself, a police volunteer and Yuval Castleman was a former policeman, a Border Guard fighter and the police...".
And even before that, the medical force in the field apparently also put him at the bottom of the list of priorities for treatment because He's considered a terrorist, right?
"It's gone that I can't tell you about, the MDA denies it, but the family says they got all kinds of strange clues in the hospital. While he's fighting for his life, a social worker comes to them and says 'But we He is being treated really well as we used to be treated, even if it was a terrorist.' Now, why say such a thing to the family at all?"
Right.
You talked about the omissions, and they did not end in mistakes or passivity, but also in a real cover-up.
"After that was the story of the post-mortem. It's shocking. We're talking about the fact that on that night, it was Thursday, Friday morning, Yuval Castleman was pronounced dead, and the head of the investigation team of the Jerusalem District Court comes to the family and tells them - Well, there's not much to do, there's no need to perform an autopsy, because there are no bullets inside the body, that's what we were told,' and writes an official statement of the police and seals it.
He writes that there is no need for an autopsy after death, because no bullets were found in Yuval Castleman's body, according to the CT findings.
"3-4 days pass, and then the same CT comes to my hands, and it says, 'Remains of metallic bodies'. The meaning is that it was not a small fragment as they said at the beginning. And I am no longer talking about the fact that after I publish it, the investigation of A police officer, of the investigating military police, is completely procrastinating, she only arrives on Sunday.
Think about the fact that on Thursday he shoots, only on Sunday he is brought in for questioning and there is time, apparently, to disrupt investigation procedures."
And in the meantime, it has to be said, all kinds of evidence disappears.
"This incident is really a serious incident by any standard.
When we publish the CT, what happens is that the Ministry of Defense realizes that there is a very, very important matter to take into account, certainly when the court tells them that without an autopsy it is very difficult to establish evidence in this case. And then they do the worst thing of all, they request From the family, the dear Castleman family, to take his body out of the grave and do an operation and take his body out. This is something that is almost never done here."
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Aviad Frija
Yuval Castelman/courtesy of the family
The crazy holes in the Mahmoud Katusa case
Let's talk about another event.
In June 2019, you reveal a series of omissions and deficiencies in the investigation file in which Mahmoud Katusa was accused of raping a seven-year-old girl by elite intelligence.
Following the publication, the heads of the prosecutor's office and the investigation division of the police decide to reopen the investigation, which leads to Catusa's release a week later, after great doubt arose as to whether he was behind the act.
"Mahmoud Katusa was a teacher at a school in Modi'in Illit, in Kiryat Safar, and was arrested by the police on suspicion of committing a serious act of rape against a 7-year-old girl. He has been in custody for a month and no one knows about this story. At the request of the family, there is a restraining order, so it is not published in the news. Only When the indictment is filed by the military prosecutor's office, the story is published and the country is shocked. Of course, it is immediately linked to a nationalist event. There is also a demand from senior officials in the coalition to investigate the case as a nationalist rape, and then they also talk about the death penalty."
The desire to immediately turn this into a national issue sounded political from the beginning and in retrospect it turned out that it really was political, because it turned out that he was innocent.
They all acted like a rubber stamp.
Describe to me how what happened from your point of view.
"When the indictment was filed, I went to Modiin Elit and I reach his employers and the people he is in contact with, then I open the indictment which until then had not been revealed. And I discover completely imaginary things in it. They tell you first of all that Mahmoud Katusa dragged the girl for 15 minutes The street is crowded with people and no one knows about it. Sounds strange to me. Then I arrive at the same employer and I show him the indictment, and he suddenly sees that he appears as a prosecution witness in the case at all, that is, he has to testify against Catusa when, while he was arrested, he came to the police to give They have an alibi. In addition, according to the indictment, the 7-year-old girl was allegedly raped in his house in Deir-Kadis, which is completely imaginary to take the girl from school to Deir-Kadis, and then they change the indictment as if the rape took place somewhere else."
Amazing.
"Yes, there are crazy holes in this case, certainly when we talk about the fact that in the indictment there is a period of time that they don't know at all, two weeks, three, four. Then you also find out that when the mother comes with the police investigators to the principal, the principal tells her - 'It could be him '. On that basis they arrested him. And then when I publish this he is actually released a few weeks later."
Yuval Castelman with his father Moshe, his sister Noga and his grandfather Ephraim./Courtesy of the photographs
"I don't know whether to call it a cover-up, but probably lies on top of lies or as a backbiting of policemen and officers who simply back each other up and don't care about the truth"
And this connects me to another case that you revealed, about the young Arab Iyad al-Khallak who was shot by the Mageb soldiers and finally it turned out that he was autistic and that he did not pose any danger to his life. He was also shot by mistake. Other times the police are actually acting on an automaton, she sees an Arab - he is immediately guilty as far as she is concerned.
"I'll tell you something, David, there are many very good police officers in the police and they really have a good desire to contribute to the country and the citizens, but the organizational culture in the police must change.
I don't know whether to call it a cover-up, but definitely lies on top of lies, or as one of these policemen and others, officers of this and that, who just automatically back each other up and don't care about the truth."
"Castelman's story is a clear story of a lie Black on white within internal, non-internal, external opinions of the police, which they brought out and caused injustice to an entire family."
One of the claims against the police is that in the last year and a half, since Itamar Ben Gabir became the Minister of National Security, it has become a very nationalistic police and he took over the police, but what you describe is a situation that was there long ago.
"That's right, long ago.
And it's a situation that really needs a lot of root canal treatment when it comes to the situation of one form or another, and certainly when we're talking about the fact that organizational culture really isn't just a slogan.
" The story of the accidental shooting of the three hostages by our forces who were trying to rescue them, and the Alor Azaria case.
"I cannot compare the Azaria case to the Castleman case because it is a soldier who shot there 15 minutes after the incident and it is a completely different case.
Azaria was also talking about a terrorist for sure.
When it comes to a terrorist, the feelings are much more nationalist like you said, I can testify for myself that I have no sentiments for terrorists.
"But even if it happened a quarter of an hour later, there are procedures for opening fire and the reason is to prevent events of the type of Yuval Castleman, and as Raful said before, I don't want to get into a situation where terrorists raise their hands. He didn't just say that, because as soon as a terrorist raises his hands It is forbidden to shoot him and not just because it is very possible that we will actually end up shooting innocent people.
"Imagine that these soldiers are there for 60 days in an intense war, all the time shooting, shooting, shooting, I was also in Gaza and saw it, they are constantly In the war, there is always a mode of - whoever moves, whoever is in the Gaza Strip, is terrorists, only terrorists.
And when they see the three abductees coming from afar, what do you think they will think to themselves?
Only terrorists can be there."
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Catusa with his daughter outside his home, June 25, 2019/Walla!, Maya Horodiciano
"Complete disconnection with the Jerusalem police"
You also saw the police in the demonstrations against the coup attempt.
Are the police officers predatory at the field level?
are they violent
Do they get the feeling that they are allowed?
"It is very difficult for me to answer this question for you because during the period when there were demonstrations in Jerusalem, and this was even before Ben Gvir, excessive police force was used, maybe it wasn't even consciously. But I know that the police understand the backlash that there is currently from the Minister of National Security, And many, many times it is projected in the field. I'll give you an example - about a month ago, a video surfaced of a Palestinian photographer from East Jerusalem, who actually got caught between police and security forces.
He's just there to take pictures, right?
I know this photographer, he is not associated with any terrorist organization or anything like that they are trying to paint him.
He takes pictures of the policemen and then the policemen tell him - 'Fly away from here'.
"He goes to the other side, doesn't want to cause a provocation, and then this policeman comes, starts hitting him, beating him and slapping him, you see it in the video, it's documented
. The next day, you see Ben Gabir's tweet - 'I back the policeman, he is immediately returned to the police.' The HMS (the police's undercover unit D.V.) and says there - 'I give you the wind to shoot the terrorists, even if you don't, even if they don't endanger you'.
I mean, the Castleman affair didn't really move anyone in this story."
Do you hear from police sources people who are outraged about this?
"Sure, sure, what a question.
They say we were kidnapped.
In the end, there must be a separation between the minister and the operative force in the police.
Very senior officers, very serious, tell me this and tell me that this is a very, very problematic time, to say the least.
You know, Ben Gvir tried to pass the Ben Gvir Law, in order to intervene a little more in the police, certainly when it comes to demonstrations and disturbances, also when it comes to legal reform, but the police understand, the senior officers who have some sense, understand that we are in a very problematic time.
You probably remember the story of Ami Ashad, who was fired from the police force while he was enforcing legal reform in Kaplan.
The police understand that there is a problem."
I assume that the police spokespersons are angry with you.
"You know, due to inertia, when you are against me and publish things that are not so convenient, then of course they are angry.
For example, I am completely disconnected from the Jerusalem police after the Castelman affair.
Even though there is a complete lie in this story, they don't admit that they lied and they say - 'we were fooled', okay, fooled, fooled.
"When you talk about speakers, they are not the ones who want to turn me around, but they were sold some kind of loksh and they actually take this loksh and trust this loksh, I mean, if there is some policeman who comes to the speaker and tells him - 'so and so happened' he doesn't check further A little, more than that, but he simply releases the version in the complete form that the policeman gave it to him and that's it. They must, must, must be more reliable, and must change many, many things, certainly when it comes to the public's trust in the police, because the public's trust is very low, and it I'm sorry, because I'll tell you something - on October 7, the police proved themselves very, very, very well."
In what way?
"The police are the ones who sought contact, they are actually the only ones who acted properly. There was a terrible disaster on October 7, in the terrible massacre, but the police were there. I mean, some of the kibbutzim owe their lives to the work of the police. I'll give you an example - in Sderot , the YMM men and the policemen who were there prevented the occupation of the city, just like that.
The Hamasniks, the terrorists, could have occupied a city in the State of Israel, which is an unprecedented situation and would have put us in a completely different place and they physically blocked it.
18 fighters died in the IMM throughout its history and on October 7, 9 fighters died at once, think what a crazy proportion."
Ami Ashad, Itamar Ben Gvir/image processing, Niv Aharonson, Eric Marmor Flash 90, Nadav Goldstein TPS
"Twitter is a huge force today, huge. Sometimes all the crazy stories are revealed on Twitter. By the way, Twitter can also be destructive in some cases, but certainly when you bring a story, Twitter is sometimes stronger and more powerful than the media itself"
Tell me, why did you actually publish this important news on Twitter.
"Because I realized that it must be done as quickly and urgently as possible, I was afraid that this story would eventually escape me, even though in retrospect I realized that I was alone in this."
Did you not contact the system?
Did they not understand that there was a story here?
"The editor knew I was publishing."
I mean, you told the editor - "I put it on Twitter" and he didn't fight for, he didn't fight for it to be on the screen first.
"I'll tell you something, on that day, it was the last day of the kidnap deal, it was the last revelation and all the systems were only concerned with that. I mean, it was a deal in which Mia was released there, who became a symbol of the kidnappers who returned, certainly after Hamas also released the Her video, so the attention was less great for other stories. But I realized that there was an abnormal story here, must be such a serious story and I also started on Twitter, also Pushes and the next day from morning until night I was...".
But that's not the only story you told on Twitter.
Perhaps this says something about the strength of the individual journalist and also about the system, as the one that is actually supposed to identify the stories first and is dragged along in the end.
"Twitter is a huge power today, huge. Sometimes all the crazy stories are revealed on Twitter. By the way, Twitter can also be destructive in some cases, but of course when you bring a story, Twitter is sometimes stronger and more powerful than the media itself."
In what way?
"In this sense that the decision-makers who both follow you and follow those who vibrate you or make you some kind of minister, suddenly realize that there is a problem, and then as soon as it grows bigger and bigger and harder it is very difficult for the media to ignore the story. And I will tell you something else, when you post on Twitter, more It's easy for competitors to do a follow-up and that's how it's perceived in all the media, and not just when you advertise - 'Okay, I put it on Channel 13, on News 13, and that's it.'"
Let's talk about the threats against you.
You often publish threats you receive on your life following exposures, in what sometimes may seem like whining.
In the end - this is the era, this is the price of the networks.
"I'll tell you why I think it's important. I'm not afraid for myself and it doesn't bother me too much either. But I think we shouldn't get used to this poison culture, it's impossible, it's impossible to continue like this. It's terrible what's happening in Israel, certainly on social media , all day they just curse you. Why do we have to get used to this thing?".
Have you ever filed a police complaint?
Has it ever become an actual step beyond shaming?
"No. I didn't file a police complaint."
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Yossi Eli, News 13 reporter and photographer Shai Foni are attacked by policemen at a demonstration against the coup d'état in Jerusalem/Liran Tamri, Maint and Yerushalayim News
"There is no Israeli who has not thought about leaving"
You immigrated from Georgia at the age of 11, and previously told about the anti-Semitism you suffered.
What is your dream cook in this regard, if any?
"Of course Shina, what a question. There is no doubt at all. As soon as you arrive on October 7th in the territory and you see all the horrors, we were really exposed to all the horrors there are, you understand that as a Jew you are not safe within your own country. It is terrible because we come to the State of Israel to be Safe, so that we have our own country, our own army, so that such and other anti-Semitic acts will not happen again in the Diaspora. And as soon as you come to these atrocities, you realize that the Jewish identity is the most important thing right now to cling to, and there are also thoughts...".
same as?
"You know, about my family. Even though we live in Mashret, and seemingly surreally the Jerusalem area has become the safest place at this point, thoughts arise that we might leave. I think that there is no Jew who lives in Israel, there is no Israeli who has not thought such thoughts. And then you say to yourself - Okay Fuss, in the end we are in the State of Israel, in the end this is our home and in our home we have to stay and this is exactly the Jewish identity you asked me about, I think it is very, very important."
Before News 13 you worked here in Vala and before that in Maariv.
How was the transition to television?
"It was very difficult, there was a period when there was also despair, I mean, it didn't come easily to me, it wasn't just at the beginning. It was two or three years of intense struggle, a struggle with myself on the issue of stuttering. I also took private tutors, who in order to really overcome This thing, but I learned that only experience makes you better.
"There was a senior editor at Channel 10 who told me that on television it's 50-50.
It is both your journalistic stories and your delivery, the presentation on the screen.
I went through a very difficult and not easy path.
It didn't come easily to me, it was not an easy struggle to face this microphone, face the camera, look at the audience.
I had periods of blackouts and stuttering and very difficult periods, but for that I can say a lot of thanks to my wife who really, really helped me with this story." Are
you a little jealous of the governor's bigger stages? I would say News 12, but also many times already 14 , which get more ratings and have more viewers and have more buzz.
"In the end, all that matters to me is the story and if my story catches on.
It was always my dream to work at Channel 10 at that time, always, more than 12.
Under the conditions we have, and our conditions are not easy, certainly when there is a very large turnover, we feel a serious patrol in this channel, feel that we are together and do everything to really bring the best product at 8:00 p.m.."
Come cheer for the competitors.
"They do a job great
Listen, Channel 12, every day at 20:00 in the evening I open their edition and see anxiety, yes?
Trembling.
What, what, what are the guys there bringing?
I think that the person who received the award together with me, Li Naim, is a great reporter and Pessi's house is really a crazy story that I wish I could bring it."
More on the same topic:
Yossi Eli
Itamar Ben Gabir
War of Iron Swords
Israel Police
Mahmoud Katusa
Yuval Castleman
Iyad al-Khalak
News 13
News 12
Channel 14