Katz against Michaeli: "I have never encountered such a huge gap between action and talk"

Just before the elections and after launching a new book in which he lays out his work and his vision, Israel Katz is looking ahead, targeting the Likud leadership after Netanyahu and closing accounts with those who particularly irritate him

Maya Buenos

14/10/2022

Friday, October 14, 2022, 8:41 p.m. Updated: 9:47 p.m.

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On video: The Likud primaries - the functionaries choose from 110 candidates (photo: Roni Knafo, Shlomi Gabbai, Yotam Ronen and Uri Sela, editing: Gilad Man Mannheim)

In the heart of Tel Aviv, on the 12th floor of Ze'ev Fortress, the tall building of the Likud headquarters, sits Israel Katz, 67 years old, in an office with a wide desk, flanked by two flags - the Israeli flag and the Likud flag, as two symbols that he wishes to carry at all times. His new book, "The Power to Do", is on the table and presents Katz's work in the various fields in which he worked.

"I changed Israel from end to end", he wants to emphasize in the book as well as in the conversation.

"The book teaches me things that most of the public does not know, even some of those who know me do not know them. But both in my character and in my way of acting, I place less emphasis on public relations, but more on doing. It is clear that some of the doing becomes public relations, for example when you see the roads. But I was at many significant intersections and it was important for me to bring this to light."

"I accepted the publisher's offer, because this time the writing process was 'in between.' the place where I was born and grew up, the story of my parents, what were my motivations to enter political life, what things were and still are important to me. Also, for me, all the great work, especially in the Ministry of Transportation and the Ministry of Finance, is part of the history of the State of Israel. I had the opportunity to recreate the The things I did, to present the reasons for these initiatives, the ways in which everything was carried out, the difficulties I faced, and how I still managed to complete the revolutions and bring about my vision in key areas, which is not a theoretical vision, but rather it stems from things I did or wanted to do."

"First of all, regarding the peace agreement Netanyahu receives the credit and rightly so, he was the prime minister and at the critical stage he led, so definitely his credit, when I was the foreign minister in his government. The same was the case with the peace agreement with Egypt. Moshe Dayan, as foreign minister, initiated quite a few things, but the credit goes to Menachem Begin, as the prime minister who was both involved and accepted the historic decisions. In my activity, there is no taking credit from Netanyahu, or from President Trump, who was a very great matchmaker and was a significant factor in the fact that the Arabs decided to sign an official agreement , from which they tried to avoid all the time, but there is a manifestation of things I did as foreign minister that were not manifested."

"Wants to be prime minister."

(Photo: Sashon Tiram)

He links all of his actions to education from home, to being a boy who grew up in a remote and isolated country at the time, and deviated from the accepted political positions there.

"I came to serve the state, the Jewish people and the common citizen, this is the legacy my parents passed on to me, based on their lessons and past," he says.

When Katz was in the 9th grade, Menachem Begin appeared at his school and Katz was captivated.

It was clear to him that he, and his father - who was a right-wing man, were outliers in the environment, a minority in the seat that was identified with the working settlement.

"The establishment in Moshav was very strong," he says.

"They controlled the economic resources, could take a person out of the house, or take away their milk and water quotas. And anyone who did not identify with them politically was very unusual."

It is this feeling that will be deeply burned in the Katz, so years later he will work to shake up bodies and systems, according to him. "In this sense, my belonging to Likud is natural," he states, "therefore, when I was appointed Minister of Agriculture,

"The first trip with the residents of Sderot. I traveled with them, with the adults, with the youth, I saw the excitement and pride they were traveling to Azrieli. This is how I fulfilled the dream and the vision for me and for them together. This issue has always burned in me."

"I even contributed the scholarship I received as a discharged soldier to Begin's neighborhood restoration project. This combination of strength in the face of the monopolies, and sensitivity in the face of the weak is who I am. But this train ride was a very moving moment, certainly in light of all the struggles I had."

"The most difficult was in the ports, in front of strong, politically connected forces. After all, all the establishments and systems ran away from them."

In his words, Katz refers to the establishment of the private ports in Ashdod and Haifa and the struggle of the workers' committees, led by Alon Hasan, chairman of the workers' committee of the Ashdod port, who were considered "stronger than any government".

"I used the social protest of 2011 to my advantage," says Katz.

"There was an atmosphere of protest, and after all, the public and public opinion have an influence, so if you use that influence correctly, as a lever, you can bend these systems.

When I led the reforms for the benefit of the public against the Histadrut, I used levers on them that they could no longer support the committees at the port in Ashdod, in Haifa or on the train."

"As I said, I am flawless.

They can check whatever they want.

They can hire investigative agencies to investigate from here to China.

I'm very careful."

"Never. I set a goal and I'm determined. That's how I always am. In the end, I advocate for competition and raising the level of service. Every monopoly I faced I cracked and changed. I'm only sorry that in the Treasury I didn't have time to complete what I planned. Two more years in the Treasury and I would have changed a lot of things In the country, reforms, competition for the public and less government."

"This is the solution in the end. The government does not know how to manage, a government needs to supervise. It should simply provide the conditions and let the private market do its thing. The country was built in a Bolshevik way with too many barriers, regulation and control by officials. It needs to be freed."

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Another transportation initiative registered in Katz's name is the Railroads for Regional Peace initiative. The initiative calls for connecting Saudi Arabia to the port of Haifa through railroads. "It's a political-transportation-economic vision," says Katz.

"I started promoting this initiative back when I was in the Ministry of Transportation, when I wanted to return the railway to the Beit Shan Valley, on the old Turkish route. The Valley Railway can connect Israel to the entire region, so when I renewed the Valley Railway, I insisted that there be a cargo terminal near Beit Shan. In order to already promote the planning of the track from Beit Shan to the border with Jordan, to Sheikh Hussein. When I started, it became clear to me that on the Arab side there is an unusual infrastructure of trains that reach the border of Jordan, with the view that from Jordan, through Syria, they will go to the Mediterranean Sea. But then, in light of The reality in Syria, it turned out that the vision is relevant because there was a need to create an incentive to try to bypass the problem of crossing through Syria, when the solution is to go through Israel, to the ports of Haifa. When I was foreign minister I promoted this,

And when I was finance minister I made sure that it was included in the peace agreements.

The Emirates leadership is very enthusiastic about this, they also want this rail connection.

The State of Israel can be a gateway to the Mediterranean Sea and Europe for those countries."

"If I were the Minister of Finance and I would continue promoting this, it would already be in the middle of the works. All that is needed is to connect 14 kilometers from Sheikh Hussein to Beit Shan."

"First of all, it is intended for transport, but also for passengers. Passengers will be able to board Israel and reach Mecca."

Katz works for regional peace but does not believe in a Palestinian state. In his eyes, this is a dangerous idea that could be a springboard for ambitions whose goal is "that we will not be here", in his words. He thinks that there should be a distinction between Gaza and Judea and Samaria, and even though the disengagement has failed in his eyes, The only way to compensate for this is a complete separation from Gaza. To this end, he proposed a creative idea that was accepted in many circles and received the support of the world as he describes: "Mule Island - a name my daughter invented, a genius name."

According to Katz, "Mule Island" is an idea for the establishment of an artificial island off the coast of Gaza, which will be connected to it by a bridge and will cover an area of ​​eight square kilometers.

The island will allow Gazans a civilian, humanitarian and commercial outlet - controlled from a security point of view - to the world, and will cut it off from dependence on Israel and the territorial connection to Judea and Samaria: "I don't want Gaza connected to Israel or Judea and Samaria. I want to open a door for them to a world that will also weaken Hamas' grip on Gaza. This model is the least evil, it is one-sided, creative, and it is backed by the world. We are no longer in Gaza. But despite the disengagement, we remained responsible for Gaza, providing them with fuel, food and other necessities, while on the other hand there is a security conflict with them. That is why I found a way, since that it is possible to establish an international island five kilometers from the shores of the country with an international force to manage it, in order to be freed from the responsibility for Gaza and to maintain a security warning border like in Lebanon. Many said that this idea is applicable."

"Because even when it was talked about giving the Gazans an opening to the Sinai, the Egyptians did not agree. The Egyptians are not ready to take responsibility for Gaza. Back in the days of Begin, they were not ready for that. They crossed Rafah with a fence, into the Egyptian Rafah and the Palestinian Rafah. Even Mohammed Morsi, from the Muslim Brotherhood movement , refused to take responsibility for Gaza and did not let them enter Egypt so easily. Therefore, in the current reality, when there are no peace agreements, and I do not believe there will be any in the coming decades, Israel has an interest in breaking away from Gaza."

I'm not declaring them a state or not, I'm simply creating a situation here where I'm removing civil responsibility from us, giving them an opening to the world, but controlled by security."

"I don't see any other model except autonomy.

It was not by chance that this was the model that Begin presented and Sadat supported."

"Trying to take credits".

Michaeli (Photo: Reuven Castro)

Like the rest of the world, Katz is also following the women's protest in Iran, the "hijab protest", a name that contradicts their demand for much broader rights and freedom. Backup, it might have been successful and it would have led to a more normative government."

"At the time, when Iran was threatened by the Green Revolution, they developed models of suppressing demonstrations. They developed methods of taking over the Internet, of locating surfers and neutralizing the network. That is why their survival is higher at the moment, unless there is a general protest that these methods will no longer help Opposite. But the West is not committed enough to come and back the protesters. After all, there is no doubt that the potential is there, the majority of the people are not interested in this regime. Then there will be no problem of nuclear weapons either, after all, in the end that is the real solution."

In the discourse on the external threats that Israel faces, Katz defines the Iranian threat as the most significant threat: "We are threatened by Hezbollah and Hamas with things that do not endanger Israel's existence.

There can be heavy damage here, but you don't conquer a country with missiles.

The Iranian threat is the most serious, because it is potentially nuclear.

is an annihilation threat.

The Iranians are worse than the North Koreans.

North Korea has a lot of problems, but not the religious thing.

The Iranians see themselves as the messengers of the Shiite religion who should bring about a Shiite revolution throughout the world.

On the one hand, they are a very intelligent, very serious, capable people, but on the other hand, their Shia vision makes them threaten Israel."

"The problem of governance, which stems from Arab extremism, is one of the reasons why I entered political life. I was not destined to be a politician. But at the time I saw the activities of Azmi Bashara at the university, I saw how the Jews were persecuted within the university, and that is what got me into the activity. I have a very clear approach , deal hard with the extremists in order to live with the moderates. That's why I enacted section 7a of the basic law of the Knesset, which prevents terrorist supporters from competing. Only thing is, the High Court of Justice overturns the decision of the election committee every time.

Ayman Odeh cannot be in the Knesset either.

After all, he stands up and calls the members of the minorities who serve in the security forces to lay down their weapons.

There is something twisted here."

"The public is tired, but they put it in two slots.

He doesn't have much room for maneuver, he doesn't have a new party that he might believe in.

Everyone is divided and the margin is on the margins and this is due to a whole process."

"This is a process that includes the boycott of Netanyahu, who has no legal cover and no public support, on the contrary - he has a large public that supports him. But on the other hand, it is politically suitable for those who want to prevent him from becoming prime minister. This includes a prime minister who took office by fraud A government with six mandates, and the reliance on the extreme Arab parties, each with its own character. This is a huge, huge crisis, which can only end if they say there is no boycott, which only comes from the left. And as long as that doesn't happen, then every time it is 'on the edge of' "

.

"I say this out of concern."

"I describe there the deterioration and damage to democracy. Right now because of their behavior, including that of the Speaker of the Knesset, they were fired from committees and created a certain reality.

And then naturally,

"I am criticizing the reality that has been created, and I am also saying why it was created by those who had the keys in their hands. I am for unity, my message is a message of unity, to establish a broad government which is not happening at the moment because of the confiscation from the left towards Netanyahu."

"At the moment our assumption and our hope is that after the other side was in power and people learned the lessons, it will break the tie. We already see it, we were 52 seats without the right wing, today we are by all accounts around 60. Many people have returned to this camp and we hope That will be enough."

"The Likud is united and will continue to be united even after this."

"As long as he is at the head of Likud - I support him."

Netanyahu (Photo: Reuven Castro)

In the book you refer quite a bit to the day when you will be elected Likud leader or prime minister, is this book a statement going forward?

"Yes, my intention is a known intention."

"Yes, and I explain why."

"Correct. Vision and action."

"As long as Netanyahu is the head of the Likud, I support him. The day he leaves, I will run for the head of the Likud. I think I am the most suitable."

"True, as a view."

"There is a difference between a book and practical politics. There is no law that limits it."

"I think that for any candidate for prime minister, who will be after Netanyahu, the most correct thing would be to lead a limit on the terms of office. This does not apply to Netanyahu, because he is already inside the political system. I say this as a vision for myself and for me, one and the same."

"First of all, I will say that the book was written until the end of my time in the Ministry of Finance, even before the decision to bring forward the elections. Already there I refer to the ups and downs, I did not come from a spoonful of money and honey. I worked very hard from the bottom, to rise and hold the most senior positions. And this is the situation I am is in it."

"Absolutely not. I was already elected in 12th place, and after that I was elected in fifth place, and after that one more time in 12th, then in the fourth, in the third, in the second and now again in 12th place. You have to understand, the primaries are unranked, you don't mark which Where you want the candidate, so it's a matter of circumstances. It did not undermine my power base and status. Sharon was also elected in eighth place before he was elected prime minister. I am sure that when the Likud forms the government, I will hold a senior position in this government, due to my status and due to my abilities ".

"We have fundamental differences of opinion."

Lapid (Photo: Flash 90, Yonatan Singer)

A day before the interview with Katz, Minister of Transportation Merav Michaeli announced that starting next year the light rail will operate on Shabbat. .

"She should read the book and understand what will be done, because she probably doesn't even know. Public transportation has been done here a thousand times more than she will dream of doing in a century. First, make sure that the light rail starts working."

Our conversation is being held against the background of the postponement of the deadline set for the operation of the red line, about which Katz says: "It's only getting worse, and that's 70 million passengers a year.

She is directly to blame for the fact that the light rail in Tel Aviv has not started working yet.

Unequivocal.

Failure to coordinate and push things forward."

"First of all, she has nothing to do with the release of the project, I released it against everyone. In four years they finished all the excavations, when I was still in office. Then within two years the surface systems had to be finished. But they were not alert enough to coordinate between the French and the Chinese To these and others. I always convened discussions, made sure to coordinate, correct, push. Not to check air conditioners on the train and recite empty slogans. Or make all kinds of political announcements. Traveling on Shabbat is a political announcement that has no possibility now, because the train is not running at all and needs to be changed the law if you want to do it. Or inaugurate my projects one after the other, like Route 16, and try to take credit for it. No one in the public takes it seriously."

"It's clear that she's trying, but she's not succeeding. Even in her own camp she's being laughed at. She should just read, hear, learn what's being done and make sure it continues. The light rail project was supposed to be operational as early as October 2021, and if I were Minister of Transportation, it would have already started. We are two opposites. I did and she makes announcements. It's not that the public didn't see what I did, they obviously did, there is a lot of power and action here, and action wins. After all, if you didn't do it, they come to you with claims. You can't escape these things."

"To say that the Likud is to blame for the sinkholes is not serious. Especially in a time when politicians are less believed, it does not bring any profit, just the opposite. Even in her camp, she will not get votes based on unsubstantiated announcements. The public does not believe in politicians, or their ability to do, or For them to really do something."

"But they do believe me. People in Netivot know what I did there, and also in Beer Sheva and Ashkelon and Afula and Karmiel, and also in Tel Aviv. When I did the first line, life was tolerable. I made sure that with all the hard work it would still be possible to move around the city, today there are two more lines , before the metro at all, which needs to be completed. Start with infrastructure works, everything is stuck. People are stuck without the lines progressing. Every month I convened a discussion to see how progress is being made, how problems are being solved, how to advance the liberation of the streets. It's like a baby, you have to accompany it , and remember that unlike London and Paris, which 120 years ago they excavated and then built, here you do it in an urban environment and you have to do it in a way that people can live with it. I really spoke contrary to my practice, I don't usually criticize personally, but she is exaggerating. She brought the gap between talk and action to a peak. There has never been a minister who talked so much and did so little."

"Okay".

"Great historical leader".

"A special person with special abilities".

"Irrelevant. He made a mistake when he tried to stop what was required, to prevent competition and development."

"A leader and a partner. A person with vision and abilities, with a high level of political understanding and ability, acquired over many years, which allows him to carry out the things he believes in."

"I see him as an Israeli patriot, even if he made a grave mistake for me in Oslo."

"He was a partner in action when I was the Minister of Transportation and he was the Minister of Finance. We have fundamental differences of opinion on issues of worldview, but normal relations."

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• Marev Michaeli

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