Juan José Omella (Cretas, Teruel, 75 years old), cardinal and president of the Spanish Episcopal Conference (CEE), descends the stairs of the Spanish Pontifical College, in the Roman neighborhood of Monteverde, already dressed in austere gray.
He has left in the closet the cardinal's attire that he wore during the visit to the Pope made an hour earlier together with Cardinal Carlos Osoro and the secretary of the CEE, Luis Argüello, to account for different matters, among which the investigation process of abuses of minors in which the Church has embarked.
Omella, during the interview he gives to EL PAÍS, says that Francisco has approved the type of commission that the Episcopal Conference has commissioned from the Cremades & Calvo-Sotelo law firm.
“The Pope has seen it well and encourages us to continue along that line.
It is an independent commission
Three months after the publication of the EL PAÍS dossier that included 251 cases affecting 31 dioceses and 31 religious orders, the Church has not reached any conclusion, and many victims have still not been contacted.
But the institution has taken an important turn in its approach to the issue.
Omella, in a conciliatory tone, after having met with several associations of those affected, explains some of the reasons for this change and assures that he is willing to go “as far as it takes”.
But there are also nuances.
The files will be opened, he points out, to the extent that respect for the law allows.
And they will only agree to enter the investigation commission coordinated by the Ombudsman, Ángel Gabilondo, when they know the methodology and the objectives.
Ask.
The last time he was in Rome he assured that no commission would be made on the abuse of minors in the Church because it was not necessary.
But since then, more than 500 cases have surfaced, when only about 200 were recognized, and we have reached a situation where there are two commissions.
What has changed in these three months?
Answer.
It is wise to know how to rectify, and one does not always have the solution in hand.
We have seen that perhaps it was good to strengthen the commissions that we created in each diocese that were accompanied by an external audit to help us evaluate if we are on the right track.
In the meantime, Parliament did this job by commissioning the Ombudsman… in short, whatever it takes to help the victims, the more, the better.
And solved the issue.
P.
And then, why wasn't it done before?
R.
Well, because we reflect.
And external people help you, reflections that come from outside, also the one you do.
We think that perhaps we have been a little slow and we had not noticed some elements.
Journalists help us, people who love the Church... ideas are warmly welcomed and help us change.
P.
It seems that there was a division of opinion within the Church.
Cardinal Osoro, in fact, said in an interview with EL PAÍS that he had not been informed of the creation of the Cremades law firm commission.
How did they decide?
R.
Cardinal Osoro said that he was not fully aware… And there was a part of truth, because he was in Rome the days we saw him in the Executive Committee, but we informed him in the exercises that we wanted to work on it.
But when it came to fruition, he was in Rome.
And when asked by journalists, he answered spontaneously and said: "I was not."
Then you say, “yes, we told him”, but he didn't realize it at the time.
But there is no division, and he participates in the collegial decisions that we make.
The independent commission?
It is wise to know how to rectify, and one does not always have the solution in hand”
P.
Perhaps from the outside it is not taken into account that the EEC is a collegiate body without executive decision-making power.
But, how then can a case like the abuse for which a united action is needed be tackled?
A.
Being a confederation of bishoprics, it is not like a political party.
In our case, we greatly respect the decision of each one, who is autonomous in his diocese.
And what the president does is coordinate the work and reach consensus.
We comment, we give the opinion.
In serious and urgent cases, he makes the decision one and then apologizes if he does it wrong.
But if not, we wait, we call each other… he is a collegiate.
We want to know how the Ombudsman will organize the commission and what methodology he will use.
When he tells us, we will decide if we enter"
P.
And in the case of the commission organized by the Ombudsman, how and when do you plan to decide whether to participate in it?
R.
We want to know how he wants to organize the commission and what methodology he will use.
And when he tells us, we will make the decision to enter.
But what is clear is that we will collaborate in everything you ask, whether or not we are inside.
Collaborate and provide transparency in everything that is needed.
Q.
What reason could they give for not participating?
R.
One issue that worries us is that the underlying problem is not being properly addressed.
The greatest number of abuses is not committed in the Church, there are more in society.
As moral references, we think it is very good to make this change of attitude and ask for forgiveness.
And I ask you once again, for everything we've done wrong.
But I am concerned that it happens in other areas as well and nothing is done to fix it.
We have a serious problem, because there are many sexual abuses reported outside the Church.
It's not an excuse, right?
It's up to us to correct it.
This is what the Pope asks of us and what Christians and the whole world ask of us, but we would like our attitude to serve so that it does not happen in other areas.
P.
Do you mean that what you would like is for the parliamentary commission to investigate pederasty in other areas?
R.
I would like it, yes.
But hey, I don't want it to be interpreted as an excuse.
I assume as a Christian the defects and failures of the Church.
Q.
Which commission model do you like the most?
A.
Well, ours seems the best to me, otherwise we wouldn't do it.
But I want to see the result at the end.
P.
The person in charge of designing said commission, Javier Cremades, belongs to Opus Dei.
That has aroused some criticism as being considered too side.
It especially seems so to the victims of abuse in schools of that order.
Have they valued it?
R.
One thing is to belong to the Opus and another is that it conditions you.
He immediately said that he was from Opus Dei, as if to say that he did not want it to condition him.
And signing advisers like [Manuela] Carmena or the former director of El PAÍS [Juan Luis Cebrián] shows in his attitude that he does not want to be conditioned by his religious affiliation to Opus.
P.
Some victims, I insist, do not see it that way.
A.
Yes, I know.
It is normal.
That is why when I met with them I told them that if they had more confidence in another institution or commission, they should go there and nothing they said would be disregarded and it would be collected.
Q.
Do you plan to open the Church archives for this commission?
R.
Let's see what they ask for and what can be given according to data protection.
We are always willing to collaborate, but up to what the law allows.
Q.
There doesn't seem to be any other way to investigate other than opening the files, right?
A.
Well, what does it mean to open the files?
Names, numbers… Well, you have to take a good look at it out of respect for the victims and the presumption of innocence.
P.
And for the Ombudsman, will they apply the same criteria?
R. Yes, obviously.
We have always said that we would collaborate, we will not obscure anything.
But there is a legal framework to respect.
P.
Since 2001 there were 220 complaints in the Doctrine of the Faith. But then in a short time we suddenly learned of another 300. How do you keep accounts?
R.
It all depends on when the complaint is filed, if it is communicated or not.
First you have to investigate, be sure, know if the person is alive... And everything is communicated to the Doctrine of the Faith...
[Omella's communication advisor, present during the interview, intervenes and points out that the 220 were 21st century complaints brought by the Doctrine of the Faith. And that the others are the result of the investigation carried out by the Spanish church since 2018 in their offices.
“We have presented it now, which is when it has been transferred to us,” he points out].
Zollner says what he believes.
But what data does he have?
P.
Regarding the figures, Hans Zollner, the expert on abuse prevention and the Vatican's main adviser on this matter, recently said that there is no reason to think that the figures for Spain will be lower than those for Germany or France, where number in the hundreds of thousands.
What scenario do you expect to find?
R.
I am not a prophet.
I can play it, but I'd be wrong.
Let's investigate and see.
We will not throw balls out.
Even if it were only one, it would be worth doing such a job, each victim deserves all the care, respect and request for forgiveness from us.
P.
Yes, but do you see reasons to think that Spain is an island in this situation?
R.
Zollner says what he believes.
But what data does he have?
We'll see.
Now we work with reality.
Q.
Why do you think victims trust a newspaper more to denounce their experiences than the Church itself?
R.
Well, sometimes it is due to a certain distrust, or greater confidence in EL PAÍS... but I can tell you that whenever a victim has come I have listened carefully and we have done what we had to do according to the protocols that existed, that they were not the same 20 years ago as they were then.
P.
The problem has been precisely that many have not found an answer in you.
R.
Well, it is possible.
It must be respected and valued.
P.
Four months have passed since we delivered the dossier to the Pope, to the Doctrine of the Faith and to the Episcopal Conference.
The approved norms give 90 days to reach conclusions and inform Rome.
A.
We immediately send the data to each affected diocese and congregation.
And each assumed it and began to investigate.
In some cases, the name of the abuser was missing, some addresses were missing... So they had to contact EL PAÍS and sometimes they took a while because of data protection, because they had to ask the victim first.
From what I know they set out to investigate and request the data.
Q.
Since we delivered it, 19 of the 31 affected dioceses have contacted EL PAÍS and a large part of the victims have not been contacted.
It seems difficult to investigate without talking to the victim.
R.
The data will have to be given to the commission and it will investigate.
The ideal is to be able to contact people, have the data and investigate…
Everything that is done with good intentions for the good of a victim, like it or not, is always good.
I appreciate the work of EL PAÍS”
P.
When EL PAÍS published the dossier, the Church responded by blaming lack of rigor.
What do you think?
R.
Everything that is done with good intentions for the good of a victim, like it or not, is always good.
I appreciate the work you have done and forward.
Q.
Do you not share that reaction then?
R.
Sometimes, we are all a bit impulsive and jump.
But that's it.
Q.
You recently met with the victims for the first time, how did you feel?
R.
I was very happy with the meeting and impacted by what they have experienced.
And it affected me emotionally, I felt very close to them and told them to follow the path they should follow to explain and denounce.
The important thing for me is to be close and help them.
P.
Do you understand that until now you have felt alone and ignored?
R.
Some yes, but others no.
I have also heard others in Barcelona who said that they had felt very close to the Church.
It depends on the experience of each one.
P.
In the investigation of EL PAÍS and in the dossier delivered, thirty bishops appear accused of covering up or silencing abuses that they learned about during their ministry.
None of them are being investigated for negligence, as the canonical code requires.
Will it be done?
R.
You have to see it, sometimes it is accused... and the person has not found out either.
P.
Yes, but here are the names in the dossier.
R.
You have to see and check everything.
P.
And who will investigate them?
Because it is strange that a diocese investigates itself, isn't it?
Or a bishop to another bishop...
R.
Well, when he arrives I will tell him.
P.
But that is regulated.
A.
If it can be shown that there has been concealment, yes.
But you have to see it.
They are strong accusations that must be seen.
But let us not forget that today's attitude to abuse is very different from that of decades ago.
Inside and outside the Church, where there were also denunciations and silences.
Then people were moved from one place to another.
There were no other protocols.
Until society reacted.
That also happened with slavery: today it seems outrageous.
Judging the past with the current mentality is terrible.
Q.
You are right.
But this past is very recent.
R.
Well, if it is recent, we will tell you what to do according to the law: Church and civil.
Q.
Has the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith given you new instructions to continue investigating the cases?
R.
No, they are very happy with the path we are taking, waiting for results.
P.
One of the Church's reluctance to investigate, we saw it in the US, has been the fear of bankruptcy and paying millions in compensation that can compromise the finances of each diocese.
Are they willing to compensate the victims financially?
R.
What the judges say will be done.
P.
How much has the Church paid to date to the victims?
A.
I have no idea, I can't answer you.
The Episcopal Conference nothing, each diocese I don't know how to say.
Q.
But is it existing data?
A.
But I don't know them.
Q.
How far is the Church today willing to go on this matter?
R.
As far as necessary.
We want the good of people, of the institution and of Spanish society.
We want people to be free, live in peace and be happy.
If you know of any case of sexual abuse that has not seen the light of day, write to us with your complaint at
abuse@elpais.es
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