Voice # 122 - What has become of the CDU?
- Subscribe to
- Apple podcasts
- Google podcasts
- Spotify
- Deezer
- Alexa
- RSS
All podcasts
For 18 years Angela Merkel was party leader of the CDU, in December 2018 she resigned. How did the party manage this? "The CDU has a very bad year behind it, one of the worst in its history," says SPIEGEL author Dirk Kurbjuweit. Not a good report for the CDU before its congress. What has become of the Great People's Party?
That's what the new episode is about. We look back at the reasons why the CDU has become an important pillar of Germany - and how things have changed under Angela Merkel. Dirk Kurbjuweit thinks: Under the Chancellor, Germany has lost the ability to argue - and "over-harmonization is followed by extreme polarization."
And even if Kurbjuweit believes that now is a troubled time for the CDU: "It will not be as ugly as the SPD."
How do I subscribe to the podcast?
You will find "Stimmenfang - der Politik-Podcast" every Thursday on SPIEGEL ONLINE ( just hit the red play button above ) and on podcast platforms like Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Deezer or Soundcloud. On the way, on the way to work, in sports: You can hear our new audio format wherever you want and when you want. Subscribe to our free podcast "Voices Catch" to not miss a episode.
You can either hear "Voices Catching" through the player in this article or download it to your smartphone, tablet or computer. So you can play it anytime - even if you're offline.
If you are reading this text on an iPhone or iPad , click here to go directly to the podcast app. Click on the Subscribe button to get a new episode directly to your device every week for free.
If you 're using an Android device , you can "catch votes" on Google podcasts, or download a podcast app such as Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, or others and add "voice catch" to your subscriptions.
You can also hear voice capture with your Alexa devices . Simply install the Voicemail Alexa app.
The podcast as a text to read
You want to read what's said in the podcast? Then you are right here.
The complete transcript
[00:00:02] Yasemin Yüksel Welcome to Stimmenfang, the political podcast from SPIEGEL. I am Yasemin Yüksel.
[00:00:09] Angela Merkel For nearly 70 years, the German Federal Republic of Germany, the CDU and the CSU have spent 50 years with the Federal Chancellor. 50 years! The other 20.
[00:00:24] Yasemin Yüksel 50 years CDU chancellorship in Germany. With this track record, Angela Merkel left the office a year ago at the party convention of the CDU in Hamburg in her last speech as CDU boss after 18 years. But today, this constant leadership claim of the CDU is no longer quite so obvious. And that's why we ask the question this week the question: What has become of the CDU? And I am very happy to be able to discuss this topic with my colleague, Dirk Kurbjuweit. Dirk, you are an author here in the capital office of SPIEGEL. I am very happy that you are here today. Hello Dirk.
Hello, I am also happy that I can be here.
[00:01:00] Yasemin Yüksel Dirk, if the CDU is going to its first party congress of the "post-Merkel era" these days - in which constitution does the party do it? What has become of the CDU?
[00:01:09] Dirk Kurbjuweit The CDU has had a very bad year, one of the worst in its history. This has a lot to do with the Hamburg party convention. Merkel has left this office, party chairmanship, after 18 years. That was certainly right and wise, but unfortunately she has only made half a decision - she has remained Chancellor. And that has thrown the CDU into a transitional phase, which then has led to chaos in the end, in a big dispute, so that they are not good right now.
[00:01:39] Yasemin Yüksel How would you describe what stamp has Merkel imprinted on the CDU in her 18 years? What did she do with the CDU?
[00:01:48] Dirk Kurbjuweit She has made the CDU a second SPD. That was really the amazing change you have made with your party. That was probably even necessary. Success is your right. I mean, she once got over 40 percent as Chancellor in a federal election. That's enormous in these times.
[00:02:15] Angela Merkel So, now ... (cheers in the background) ... yes, dear friends, the jubilee shows: We can all be happy today, that's a great result. First of all, I would like to thank the voters who have given the Union such outstanding confidence.
[00:02:31] Dirk Kurbjuweit She got a lot of support for that by running a very generous social policy. It has liberal rights - also a classic topic of the SPD rather or the Greens - it has strengthened by the gay marriage, which they did not necessarily want. But then she did, so that she made the society as a whole more open, more liberal. That was not necessarily the big topic of the CDU. Then of course the refugee policy.
[00:02:57] Angela Merkel I just say, Germany is a strong country and the motive in doing these things has to be: we have done so much, we can do it. We can do it, and wherever we can something is in the way, it must be overcome.
[00:03:13] Angela Merkel Not exactly a classically conservative attitude that she has shown there. She has already transformed this party quite amazingly, and on the one hand that is a great accomplishment that she did, on the other hand she has not done it in a good way.
[00:03:29] Yasemin Yüksel Can you describe that? Why not in a good way?
[00:03:32] Dirk Kurbjuweit Angela Merkel has a very strange leadership style. She waits a long time, she does not talk much, she watches, she watches. And then she looks: What can I do? What is dangerous? What do I prefer to leave? And then she sometimes decides very abruptly. We had that at the nuclear phase-out. And then she is also very emotional. She saw these pictures of Fukushima on TV and thought: no, no, no, no.
[00:03:57] Angela Merkel But after the unimaginable disaster in Fukushima, we had to reconsider the role of nuclear energy and therefore decided to go even faster and make the decision to make the fall.
[00:04:16] Dirk Kurbjuweit And then, unfortunately, unfortunately, she does not communicate retrospectively. You can also lead from the beginning, so to speak, but then you have to justify it well afterwards. That's just her big weakness. She does not give her policy a good reason. And then of course suffers such a party. She also wants to discuss, she wants to be taken along, she wants to be convinced. And that's what I mean by this review: It's not a good way to do it and take people along.
[00:04:41] Yasemin Yüksel Now you said she made the CDU a second SPD. Would you then go so far that the CDU just overtakes the same fate as the SPD, which says goodbye more or less from this status of the People's Party by and by? Is this a destiny that the CDU is about to endure?
[00:04:59] Dirk Kurbjuweit You can not say that yet. There is this danger. But there are some things against it. The CDU is a disciplined party after all. And she has now delivered some battles before the congress, also very rough - unusual for the CDU. But I believe that she will calm down, that she will calm down again relatively quickly. And that's the difference to the SPD: The SPD never calms down. The SPD always wants to argue, always argue, always fight. And that makes it so grueling for the leadership of the SPD. On the one hand, it's a very lively party, that's nice. On the other hand, they just finish their chairpersons. And that's why there have been so many in recent years who have simply gone or been driven out. Since the CDU is reasonable in the end. They say: No, we are bourgeois, so to speak, we also want to be well-behaved. Sometimes you forget that, but most of the time they are. We accept our leaders, and therefore, I believe, the CDU has a very good chance of not becoming the second SPD in this area.
[00:06:05] Yasemin Yüksel Now we have just heard this o-sound. Merkel again pointed out: In 50 of 70 years Federal Republic, the CDU has made the Chancellor. But is this statement still valid for the future? Will that be the next one - well, 50 years I do not want to say - but will that continue for the next 25 years, the next 10 years?
[00:06:25] Dirk Kurbjuweit I do not think so. And luckily not, you have to say. The CDU is the state party of the founding phase of the Federal Republic.
[00:06:34] Angela Merkel Several founding members of the CDU were already active in resisting National Socialism, were persecuted and imprisoned. So there were Catholics and Protestants who have recognized in the prison cells of Berlin Plötzensee: We bear joint responsibility for our homeland, across confessional boundaries. They put the common across the divide and that should be our benchmark in the future.
[00:07:03] Dirk Kurbjuweit And here she was enormously important in giving stability to the country. It was also important that in the beginning a conservative chancellor led this country out of the phase of monarchy, dictatorship, which was still in the Germans, despite the episode of the Weimar Republic, to lead over to democracy. It was immensely important that such a bony, conservative politician as Konrad Adenauer of the CDU did.
[00:07:30] Konrad Adenauer Germany has another task: It wants to use all its power to shape Europe, to secure peace. That is the most beautiful task that can ever be put to a people. We want to try to solve it.
[00:07:52] Dirk Kurbjuweit Then Helmut Kohl, so to speak, to lead Germany into Europe, and so on ... It was also very likely that the CDU did it.
[00:08:00] Helmut Kohl Germany is our homeland - united Europe our future. Never has peace been as secure in Europe as it is today.
[00:08:10] Dirk Kurbjuweit Now we have a new country. The Federal Republic is an established state in Europe, in the world. And: We have another world with different challenges. The climate, we will be busy for a long time with the refugee issue. And there I have my doubts as to whether the CDU has the best and the right answers. So I would say or predict that the CDU will not rule so much anymore, because the citizens will also realize that maybe other parties have better offerings on these issues.
[00:08:42] Yasemin Yüksel And what does it mean for the country, if this constant, so CDU is more or less always ruling party - if that is lost?
[00:08:49] Dirk Kurbjuweit This is an exciting experiment. I am also very divided, I have to say, because: On the one hand, it was good that the Federal Republic was very stable for 70 years. For Europe, too, it was good that in the middle, the largest, economically strongest country is a stable country. On the other hand, the Federal Republic is also a bit "overstabilized". Backed by the past - chaos, the Weimar Republic, then the Nazi era - there was a great deal of security and stability, and perhaps a bit too much. The liveliness of democracy has suffered as well as the innovative capacity of this country. In this respect, I wish that maybe there will be a bit more change, that it will be a bit more exciting, that democracy will be revived a bit even after these somewhat blood-poor Merkel years. Also, by the change, also, that somebody, maybe a brand new party - a very different party like the Greens - just sometimes the Federal Chancellor. That's the good. The other side is that we do not know whether it will again be possible to produce such stability in change and in the new. And that is the experiment that is to come to the Federal Republic in the next few years and decades. And that makes it so exciting, but also a bit exciting.
[00:10:07] Yasemin Yüksel So if the CDU is not so much about governing in the future, then it could score in terms of content. But the question is: Can she do that? Or is it "contentwise insolvent" such as a party internal critic - in the case it was Baden-Wuerttemberg CDU parliamentary group leader Wolfgang Reinhart - it has recently accused? He also said: "For the big issues of our time, the CDU has no antennas and no agenda." The drawers are empty. " Is he right?
[00:10:34] Dirk Kurbjuweit That certainly applies to the climate policy. This is the real drama of the CDU. And also the drama of the Chancellor, I think. I was - I believe in 2007 - twice, once in Brussels, once in Heiligendamm, when, so to speak, the climate chancellor was born. And before that, a report by this international panel of scientists had been published, with dramatic figures twelve, thirteen years ago. It was already clear what was to come. That was there, that was obvious and Merkel immediately jumped on it as the scientist she is, she was clear: physicist, chemistry and so on, I have to take that seriously. And she believes in science and believes that science delivers the right results and predictions. So she tried to fix the EU on relatively ambitious climate targets, back then against Chirac's opposition. And she has achieved a lot.
[00:11:27] Angela Merkel It is therefore essential, first of all, that the G8 develop a common understanding of how to effectively tackle climate change, which international conventions are beyond 2012. I'll tell you quite frankly: I still do not know today whether this will succeed in Heiligendamm. For me, there is no question that the leading industrialized countries need to move forward on this issue. Otherwise we will not be able to fight climate change.
[00:12:00] Dirk Kurbjuweit Then came Heiligendamm. Since Bush was very tough, so the younger Bush very tough and has resisted her there for a long time. But somehow she had charmed him and then he came a bit towards. At that time there was the big headline of the climate chancellor in the picture newspaper and all hearts flew to her. Germany was proud of this Chancellor, that she had achieved a lot in this area. And then you have to say unfortunately and that - as I said - is the tragedy, including the drama, this woman and her party that she has lost this important issue then out of sight. Then came the crises, only the financial crisis, 2007/2008 it was already going on. And there I was also in a background conversation, as she said very clearly: I can not expect the Germans now even higher gasoline prices, oil prices and so on. We have to get this crisis under control. That had a certain rationality and was still wrong, as we know today. Even then you could already know that this is the bigger, more important topic. Unfortunately she lost sight of it and only then, twelve years later, did she rediscover herself under the pressure of the road. And we lost so much time. And although this Chancellor really knew what was going on.
[00:13:21] Yasemin Yüksel Would you ultimately say that under Merkel the CDU was too pragmatic, too little programmatic.
[00:13:28] Dirk Kurbjuweit Yeah, I'd say she was not brave enough - that's how it would be expressed. Merkel was too cowardly - too cautious it could be expressed friendlier. She always pretended to be so, she did not dare. And I think, again, I believe that much, much more was possible, precisely because, as Chancellor, she was undisputed for a long time. She was immensely popular. She had high approval ratings, she had no opponents, long inside party. And she just had a lot of power and she could have done a lot. And that is to her own credit that she did not do it.
[00:14:06] Yasemin Yüksel Too pragmatic, not brave enough, you say. I must remember that I looked back to the very beginning of the CDU to prepare for our episode today. And on the website of the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung, for example, you can listen to O-Töne by Adenauer himself. The said at a party convention of the CDU in 1966 on the founding of the party:
[00:14:28] Konrad Adenauer We wanted to found a big People's Party. A people's party that anyone could enter, no matter what denomination they had, no matter what job they did.
[00:14:44] Yasemin Yüksel So a very broad common denominator, namely the connection to Christianity. Could it be that this content bracket is too vague nowadays, so that it is no longer sufficient?
[00:14:55] Dirk Kurbjuweit Yes, indeed. It has become vague because it no longer exists the parentheses that Adenauer called. He was, of course, from the time in which he lived, very focused on the denomination and oriented. And that was also new and a great merit that just a conservative party represents both religions. Before that there was the center, which was Catholic, and then, so to speak, the voters of the center were united with the conservative electorate of the evangelical tendencies. And that was a great merit and important. But this brace of Christianity, of common faith, does not exist that much anymore. Now the clip is just the middle. But the middle, unlike faith, Christianity is a vague concept. And many want to get in there, many want to get involved, and that's the problem of our time. That it is so hard to define what is really "middle" and to fill that term? Schröder once tried the "new center". He did that quite successfully, but that did not last long. And now? CDU continues to hold on to it, but squeezes everything possible in there, that it will be so arbitrary again. In fact, one has not found a good parenthesis that has replaced the old one.
[00:16:10] Yasemin Yüksel Is the CDU still a conservative party today? You said earlier that she became the SPD number two, under Merkel at least.
[00:16:19] Dirk Kurbjuweit Yes, I would not call her a conservative party. It has a conservative current, but in the Merkel years it has become weak, almost meaningless. Now she's living up a bit again. But we also do not know how great the support of this current really is. No, you can not say that anymore. The CDU is really a party center with a strong social democratic alignment, with a liberal orientation. It always was, with a small conservative part.
[00:16:49] Yasemin Yüksel Let's just hear what the Chancellor herself said in 2015 at the 70th anniversary celebration of the CDU on the subject. Conservative or not?
[00:16:57] Angela Merkel The Social Democrats like to call us the Conservatives. I want to add that it's one of our roots, but not the only one. Christian, social and liberal are also included. But: It's also right, changes are being scrutinized by us, and maybe that's a good thing. Because what has been good and has proven itself, you do not have to give up without sense and reason.
[00:17:23] Yasemin Yüksel Maybe to this point. But perhaps that has also become a trap - you've just talked about deficits in climate policy, for example - that society-changing impulses may have been too hesitant to tackle?
[00:17:38] Dirk Kurbjuweit Of course, the CDU is the walking compromise because it wants to cover such a broad spectrum, precisely because it wants to be a People's Party. And because she only has this vague middleclasp, she naturally has to make tremendous compromises in herself and then represent them. That's what makes it so hard for the party. Then she has a problem, which of course she should also cover the right spectrum with, so the conservative. Of course, this is especially difficult in Germany, because conservative is, after all, the preservation of what was and what is. Whatever was, that's more difficult in Germany than in any other country, except perhaps in Japan. Because here was just ... On the right side there was the Nazis, and there is nothing to preserve. And so, so to speak, the Conservative in the Federal Republic is always a bit uncertain. You do not know exactly what to refer to. The Emperor is not. So, there is actually relatively little. And now we see that if you want to be really conservative like the AfD doing that now. It immediately comes into conflict with the Nazi era from our point of view, because it somehow recalls it - the AfD does not like that as a conflict - and then you are already there. And then you are already uncomfortable, unappetizing and sometimes disgusting. Since the CDU had always clearly demarcate from, because she did not want to go. That is also the great merit of this party, that it has done that. But now that memory fades, she just gets into a problem, because others say, Nope, we just do it the way it's conservative. And then the CDU has a hard time to counter that, because in this area, in this dirty area, she does not want to go. That's just to make it clear how torn this party is, how difficult it is to lead the CDU.
[00:19:37] Yasemin Yüksel In its own self-image, the CDU is still this successful People's Party of the Middle. Is this concept folk parties generally outdated, or is it for the two - I now think of SPD and CDU? Did they do it wrong? Or is the concept as such no longer the right one for the Federal Republic today?
[00:20:00] Dirk Kurbjuweit I think it would be a pity, because I believe that two people's parties are also good as an anchor of stability in the end. I believe that the SPD is leaving there. The SPD - I can be wrong, but I dare this forecast - will not make it anymore. Because she was too strong then ultimately client treachery by just a policy also very strong for the elite, has made for the rich and sometimes against the lower income strata, against the poor. Every now and then, even though that may have helped the Federal Republic of Germany in the first place, that can be true, it has badly harmed itself, it has lost confidence and it will not be able to do it again. I think it's over. The CDU has moved a little more cautiously. It has also changed, but it has made it more cautious overall, and that's why they have represented a wider range. And my personal prognosis is that it will remain that it will remain as a people's party, not as it was in the past over 40, but in the 30s, I would think that would be a people's party and would also be important that there is such a stability anchor , I believe that even for the Germans, for the voters, which is still attractive, to have such a strong party. We have now seen this in the state elections, that in the end the strongest parties did not lose as much as they thought. So, the CDU in Saxony, the SPD in Brandenburg, the left in Thuringia has even gained, because many citizens thought: Yes, we want to have such a central anchor. For all those who have ambitions to be a People's Party, this can certainly give hope that this concept will remain.
[00:21:45] Yasemin Yüksel Dirk, you wrote essays about Merkel in many texts, editorials, and about the Merkel period. You also often described that this Chancellor also shaped us citizens. One sentence I remember: "We are now creatures of the Merkel period," you once wrote. How did she change us?
[00:22:03] Dirk Kurbjuweit On the one hand, it changed us to the negative, I would say, because for me the defining thing, in the Merkel period, is already the relaxation of the debate, of the dialogue, so to speak. I once called this the "new Biedermeier". That she simply tried to keep conflicts small, dub, not to address problems. And that has just fueled the debate in this country. My impression was that also the German citizens went along so a bit, slipped into this second new Biedermeier. But then one loses eventually the habituation to debating. And when it comes back to the fight, then it is immediately so unpleasant, and then it explodes immediately, and I think that we have actually experienced exactly. After 2015, when suddenly there was an issue that was suddenly very controversial, the influx of many refugees and then the discussion was equally uncomfortable. And I had a bit of the impression also: Here is talking to a people who are no longer used to debating. I just think it's almost like a natural cycle or sequence we're experiencing right now: a long period of over-harmonization is now followed by extreme polarization. And that, in my opinion, has a lot to do with Merkel in a deeper sense.
[00:23:27] Yasemin Yüksel So, have we, the Merkel creatures, in order to stay in your picture, fatally forgotten how to quarrel? Do we also take something positive from the Merkel era?
[00:23:36] Dirk Kurbjuweit What I find good at the time, what she leaves us as good, is then a pragmatic, in the sense of a non-ideological, look at things - unbiased. If you are ready to accept that, you can also take a lot of Merkel time with you. I also remember that in the 1990s many debates were very unpleasant because they were so ideological. It was always clear what the CDU means. And it was always clear what the SPD said against it, it was so simple because they always did it that way. And so Merkel has actually cleaned up. I find the country, you can tell that also with younger people, who follow it now, they are more open. They are not so ideological, they are not so fixed and above all not left and right. And I feel that as pleasant. That too is not just about Merkel. But Merkel is of course an expression of her time and shaping her time. And both, I think, can be recognized very nicely by the way our time is right now.
[00:24:40] Yasemin Yüksel I'm also interested in your perspective as a Merkel observer. You are one of the journalists who saw her behind the scenes on many dates. I have now read in some of your older texts in preparation for today. Often I find it surprising. For example, if you describe a scene, you were on a foreign flight with Merkel and she laughs. You describe that she almost laughs tears. Personally, I can hardly imagine that, but you seem to have experienced it from other sources as well.
[00:25:10] Dirk Kurbjuweit Yes, that's right. I always had the feeling that I know Merkel twice. I've also seen a lot of public Merkel, listened to countless speeches from her, heard, sat in the audience sometimes extremely bored, because these speeches are so brittle and so without risk and so pragmatic. And then you could probably look forward to the return flight, for example, when traveling abroad, there is a background conversation. So one way flight is always, you talk about the country in which you fly. We were in India now, then we talked about India for an hour and a half or an hour. India was already left behind on the return flight, and then they talked about Germany, where they now fly and talk about domestic politics. And then it is true that she is sometimes very open and, above all, a different person. She is ... she is real - so she's smart anyway, which I think all voters have heard. But she is really really funny. But her humor is also so strongly influenced by Schadenfreude. She is also happy when something fails, you have to say, so something fails others. Since she can make very nice jokes about it. She is very good at imitating others. Pope Benedict, that was really the big moment of the comedy that you could experience with her. And yet she is, you do not come ... you do not have the feeling of really looking into the depths of her soul. That will not let her out like that.
[00:26:42] Yasemin Yüksel Dirk, at the beginning we asked the question: What happened to the CDU? Finally, let me ask again: What can become of the CDU in the next 10, 15, 20 years?
[00:26:55] Dirk Kurbjuweit I think the shorter perspective is more of a dark one. It is often the case that, after strong chancellors and long chancellor years, there comes a time for a reorientation. It was like that after Adenauer, then there was a transition period with a grand coalition, but then it was time for the SPD to act. And after Kohl it was exactly the same thing that only once seven years, the SPD has ruled and the CDU was banished to the opposition.Since there is no strong successor offer, I would say that now comes a very troubled time for the CDU. It will not be as ugly as the SPD, I think. But it will be uneasy and it is not yet clear who will become Chancellor candidate and thus also the party leader. Because I believe that if Merz succeeds in becoming a chancellor candidate, he will also become party leader. AKK, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer is not yet the successor of Merkel in the whole sense. Well, that is getting restless, and I believe that for the others it is a great opportunity, for the other parties now is the great opportunity to take advantage of this power vacuum of the CDU, to profile themselves. But I think that traditionally the CDU also has a great power of renewal and would therefore say that it can really renew itself in the opposition if it slips in there. And I believe that it does not go back, that she is conservative, but the CDU remains modern, also because she has many women, for example. Younger women who have been put into power positions by Merkel. Julia Klöckner, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer anyway. That these women will pay attention that this remains a modern, progressive, but moderately progressive party. In that sense, my prognosis would be: In the long run, the CDU will return to power and then be greener than it has been so far, perhaps not so much in social politics anymore. That would be my prognosis. But to be honest: With political forecasts, I've had to make quite bitter and dark experiences, because so many factors are playing a role that I would ask you not to take that too seriously.
[00:29:18] Yasemin Yüksel The good news is, Dirk, the voice-over podcast is released every week. This means that you can come back often, and we can also develop new forecasts together, including on the future prospects of the CDU. Thank you very much for today. I think it's nice that you were there. Thanks for your insights.
[00:29:32] Dirk Kurbjuweit Thank you, very much.
[00:29:38] Yasemin Yüksel That was the voice of the SPIEGEL policy podcast. As always, you will hear the next episode on spiegel.de, on Spotify and in all popular podcast apps. If you want to send us feedback, just write an e-mail to Stimmfang@spiegel.de or use our voice mailbox on 040 380 80 400. You can also send us a WhatsApp to the same number, ie 040 380 80 400 -Send Message. This episode was produced by Matthias Kirsch and me, Yasemin Yüksel. Thanks for the support this week to Philipp Fackler, Sebastian Fischer, Johannes Kückens, Wiebke Rasmussen and Matthias Streitz. The vocal music comes as always from Davide Russo.
