"We want this war to end, and this is in Russia's hands. It can do it tomorrow if it withdraws all its units from every piece of Ukrainian territory, including the Crimean Peninsula, and recognizes its sovereignty. This must be the outcome of the war."
This is what the German ambassador to Israel, Stefan Seibert, says in a special interview with Israel Hayom on the anniversary of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The conversation with Seibert takes place on Tuesday this week, a day when Russian President Vladimir Putin and US President Joe Biden spoke. While Putin delivered a lackluster speech on the resilience of the Russian economy, and accused for the umpteenth time of being responsible for the war in Ukraine - Biden stood out What was probably one of the two decisive surprises for the Kremlin: the alignment of the Western democracies on the side of Kiev (the other surprise was the fierce resistance encountered by the Russian army and the resistance of Zelensky and his government).
In particular, the words are said about the European Union, which is perceived in Moscow as a cumbersome, hesitant and divisive entity.
A special place in this concept was dedicated to Germany, the strongest economy in the union, because of the special relationship between Berlin (and before the German reunification - the capital of the West Bonn) and Moscow.
Whether because of the blame for attacking the USSR in Operation Barbarossa, whether because of the dependence of the German economy on cheap Russian gas, which started back in the days of the USSR and was only expected to deepen with the Nordstream 2 project, or because of Chancellor Schultz's gray image.
The Kremlin was convinced that Berlin would be a factor that could be trusted.
Perhaps it is better to say it differently: in Moscow they did not think that Berlin would become one of the main centers of support in Ukraine, as the war developed.
Putin in his last speech.
hurled accusations, photo: Reuters
The taboo has been lifted
The change was dramatic: from a country that did not heed Ukraine's calls not to advance the approval of the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline, fearing that it would be used as a weapon for extortion;
From a pre-invasion country that refused to allow British planes to pass through its skies with weapons supplies to Kiev, and initially agreed to send helmets - Germany became the world's third largest provider of military aid (next to Poland) to Ukraine, with 2.4 billion euros.
Today, it is preceded only by the USA with 44.3 billion and the United Kingdom with 4.9 billion (according to data from the Kiel Institute for World Economics). Berlin was criticized in Kiev for wasting time, but already in July 30 mobile anti-aircraft guns of the Gephard model were sent, in October advanced air defense systems were transferred of the Iris-T type, and most importantly - in January, Germany lifted the taboo on the transfer of Leopard 2 tanks, the most common model in NATO countries, in a decision that paved the way for other countries that own the model to help. According to Ambassador Seibert, in total, Germany transferred aid worth 13 billion Euro, in addition to its share of aid from the European Union.
"The European Union has undergone a profound change in the past year, and Germany in particular, because before the war we did not send weapons to war zones or conflict zones, with the exception of one case - a war against ISIS to prevent the genocide of the Yazidis. This Russian war in Ukraine is such a gross violation of the principles of international law - that Germany, the European Union and NATO had to respond, and in general met the challenge.
I believe that Russia did not expect the European Union and NATO to respond in such a determined way, and in such a united way. If there is something good in this tragedy, in my opinion, it is the fact that we were able to unite, meet the challenge and provide unprecedented assistance to a country in need."
Will the aid include types of weapons that will shorten the path to a Ukrainian victory, such as the fighter jets that Kiev is asking for?
"We have provided and are still providing air defense systems, various types of tanks, missile launchers, ammunition, a lot of what Ukraine needs to defend itself against this violent aggression. Additional possible requests from Kiev should be discussed in Germany, as well as with our partners. We did the same with regard to the tank Leopold: First a discussion at the national level, and then a discussion with our partners. I can't predict what the future holds, but so far we have provided military aid on an enormous scale, and we have done so because we believe that this campaign is not only a campaign by Ukraine for self-determination and the survival of its nation, but also Struggle for freedom in Europe".
That is, you do not rule out the possibility of supplying aircraft.
"It is not currently under discussion. The past year has shown us that denying something 'on the spot' is never wise. There are arguments for and against that must be considered, and it will be done."
Leopard 2 tank in action.
Germany became Ukraine's third military supplier, photo: AP
New low
Even after a year of war, support for Ukraine among Europeans in general and Germans in particular remains quite high.
According to "Eurobarometer" data, 74% of Europeans support EU aid to Kyiv (the Swedes lead with 97% support, the Germans are slightly below average with 73%, and the Bulgarians close the list with 48%).
But even here the picture is more complex.
The "Ipsos" survey, conducted at the beginning of December last year (before the approval to supply tanks), showed that the proportion of Germans who believe that the war is not their problem increased by 11% (compared to March-April), and the proportion of those who support sending weapons dropped to a low of 48%.
The "Euroscopy" survey, conducted in nine European countries and published in January, found that 56% of their residents support the continuation of the arms supply, but 48% support the achievement of a quick peace, even with the ceding of territories.
Chancellor Schultz.
Policy change, photo: E.P
"Sometimes you hear such voices calling to Ukraine, 'Listen, why don't you give up on this and that, and then everything will be over?'" says Seibert.
"Such statements are very disturbing. I don't think anyone has the right to tell a country that has been attacked, and in such a way, to give up territories so that we are not bothered by the war.
The Ukrainians are waging a heroic struggle because they know their fate is on the table, because they see what war crimes have been committed in villages and cities.
Germany is sending experts to document the war crimes, and one day it will end, but the war must not end without those responsible for the crimes and those who gave them the order being punished.
"We mustn't forget how much Russia itself will suffer from the war. I'm not just talking about a six-figure number of Russian casualties, which gives the impression that they don't move the Kremlin, but about the fact that Russia is thrown back many decades, into a very dark chapter of its history. I am convinced that Russia will be a poorer country In the future. This is also the theft of the future of the Russian children. The fact that there is practically no more gas supply to Europe - this is also a watershed, for us and for them."
And maybe this irrationality is part of a miscalculation by Germany and Europe in relation to the Putin regime? After 2014 there were talks to end the war and the settlement in Donbass (the Minsk agreements and the Normandy format), and it seems that you tried to talk to Putin, despite the annexation of Crimea and the war in Donbass. Was it a mistake?
"No, I don't think it was a mistake," Seibert says.
"Berlin and Paris never had any illusions about the essence of the Russian regime. There were no illusions about Putin's deep aversion to democracy in his country and its neighbors. In fact, it was Germany and France that led the international reaction to the annexation of Crimea - with condemnations, sanctions and, of course, non-recognition. This is what led to Minsk.
"To say that the Minsk agreements were far from perfect would be an understatement, but that's what could have been done at that moment. They froze the war in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, which belong to Ukraine and should not have been under the rule of Russia and the separatists. If it weren't for the freeze, the war would have gnawed away at more parts of Ukraine, as Putin Trying to do even now. The programs for 'Novorossiya' (from the Donbass) to Odessa were on the Russian TV screens."
"The citizens will decide"
Seibert (62), a TV journalist in the past, arrived in Israel after 11 and a half years as a spokesman for the German government - the longest tenure in the history of the position.
Why Israel?
"It is one of the most valued and challenging positions in our diplomatic service," replies Seibert.
"There is a unique connection between Germany and Israel - because of our history, because of our special commitment to Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, because of the great tension in the region, because of the ongoing conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel is so diverse, there are actually many companies here in one company. So being a German ambassador Here it is a great honor, a wonderful and quite difficult position. I consider myself lucky to be here."
You are here at a very dramatic time, and you are awake to the storm surrounding legal reform. What is the German government's position on the matter? Did you try to advise Netanyahu to slow down the process - as they reportedly tried in the White House?
"The decision on how the judicial system in Israel is organized should be made by Israeli democracy and the citizens of Israel. It is clear to everyone who lives here how much this issue stirs up the country, if 300 thousand people take to the streets. The supporters of this reform and its opponents fight with enthusiasm and with arguments. In Germany we have beliefs Very clear on this issue: in our country, under our constitution, it is very important to have checks and balances.
"In our understanding, democracy does not mean that the majority gets permission to do what it wants, but that the democratically elected majority has limits, which are the law and fundamental rights. Our freedom is found in the interaction between the three branches of government. Therefore, when we talk to our colleagues in Israel, when our politicians talk to them, we We talk to them about our experience and our beliefs.
"In a democracy, it is important to have a democratic majority that is able to do what it was elected for, but to the same extent it is important to protect the rights of minorities, and therefore these checks and balances are required. We make this position clear to our Israeli colleagues, who will ultimately have to make a decision in the Knesset and with the consent of the citizens. We are convinced that it is desirable to obtain a broad majority when making a fundamental change in the balancing system."
Much criticism is voiced in the West towards the reform and the future of democracy in Israel. Are you worried about her future?
"As mentioned, the relationship between Israel and Germany is one of a kind. However, the values of democracy and freedom that we share are also an important basis of these relations. That is why we are following very closely."
Since arriving in Israel, Seibert's Twitter account has been very active.
He shares his experiences and addresses his followers in Hebrew.
In August of last year, he condemned the words of the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, who accused Israel of "50 Holocausts" while standing next to Chancellor Schulz in Berlin. "The statements were wrong, and completely unacceptable," Seibert said at the time. "We are not allowed to deny the singularity of This heinous crime."
On the other hand, a month ago he was criticized after he expressed "concern about the large number of casualties in the IDF operation in Jenin". About two weeks ago, when Minister Galit Distel-Atbarian tweeted that the protest against the reform was financed with Iranian or German money, Seibert said that he was disappointed.
"I have no desire to confront government ministers, but I also have to stand up for my country when something completely wrong is said about it," says the ambassador, who intends to meet with the minister soon.
"To say that people on Kaplan Street or outside the Knesset are there because of German money - that is completely wrong. I was also disappointed that she spoke about Iran and Germany in the same sentence. We see ourselves, and I believe our Israeli friends think so, as devoted friends of this country.
"Iran is not only a terrible totalitarian regime, but also a country that does not accept the existence of the state of Israel and threatens it on a daily basis. I would not like to be mentioned in half a sentence."
German money
Let's look at it from another angle: there is a chance that the minister's words reflect unease on the right with Germany's position in relation to civil society organizations. There is also uneasiness regarding the nature of the relationship with the Palestinian Authority. Israel's ambassador in Berlin, Ron Proshaur, wrote that Germany actually pays to kill when its money goes to the families of terrorists. Is there something Germany is doing wrong?
"I read the article by Ambassador Proschauer. He rightly attacks the payments to the families of the terrorists, the pay for slay method, and I share his opinion that this method should be strongly rejected. Germany does not support the Palestinian Authority's budget in general, but specific projects in the Palestinian territories, And I think that between democratic countries like Israel and Germany - there is no need to fear when Germany makes contributions to civil society and the democratic discourse in this society.
"We also do this in many other countries in the world. Some of these funds come from German political foundations, which are completely independent from the German government in choosing the programs and projects they support. Every time we support a project, we check in advance whether it is in line with our political values, and of course also With the laws. And if someone proves to us that Project X supports terrorism - there will be no German money."
There are Palestinian entities that Israel defined in 2021 as terrorist organizations, which operate under the cover of civil society organizations. Germany does transfer money to some of them.
"Like several other countries, including the USA, we asked the Israeli government to provide evidence or proof.
There have been several rounds of talks on this issue, and so far no conclusive evidence has been presented to us.
The process is still ongoing.
If they present us with decisive evidence - we will reconsider our position, that goes without saying."
Can you guarantee here that no German money goes to the families of terrorists and in any way supports them?
"There are projects that, in our opinion, contribute to civil society, for example to economic improvement in the Palestinian territories, as well as to democratic awareness, which is also in Israel's interest. We do not support terrorism. If someone tells us 'this is a donation that supports terrorism and there is evidence for it' - we will look into it very seriously. You can imagine that the charge of supporting terrorism is very, very heavy, and we would carefully examine and act accordingly."
You are aware of the impression that such support is politically colored in a certain way.
"I am aware of the fact that security in this country is the number one political issue. As a German, when you come to live here, even for a short period, you understand that security is not some theoretical matter. It is very practical. You have to go to the MMD.
You hear about a horrific terrorist attack at a bus stop that kills two children.
This is something that can only be understood when you live here, and it is clear that any policy in the future should take the matter of security into account.
I am also convinced that sustainable and long-term security will come sooner when there is a political solution to this conflict.
It won't happen next week, but it's important to keep working on it, not dismiss it as an illusion."
were we wrong
We will fix it!
If you found an error in the article, we would appreciate it if you shared it with us